Koon Decision Killed Mmj For Now. Demand And Prices In Freefall

[Beans]

thank you for your support and i do agree their is nothing about are case that we don't have prove of under plants under 2.5oz locked up we both had are recommendations and the 21 day's had passed it is really that simple and we are both well sick enough Torey has Cancer i need 2 new hip's and was taking lots of pain pills leo even left all the ox's at first when they broke down are front door they said we were selling pill's

but didn't take them just the marijuana and even left us a few joints for the next day

 

you can read it for your self with are case we have nothing to hide it's been the same story from day one we were legal

even the C.O.A has said we could take the fact's to a jury

 

and we were OK with that but when we got to court the PA said we didn't have it locked up and used the King case against us even the leo's testified in court that we had a lock on are bedroom door

 

but it was not locked at the time because i was in the room they used a battering ram on are front door

and wait for it

no warrant until 2-3 hours later and wait for it you could not even make out who had signed it it had no name under the signature and the leo testified that he could not remember who it was that signed it yup

 

Thanks Bob always wondered what prompted a warrant or lack of

 

[Murph]

Bob, I have your case in my database. We know that you have nothing to hide and are one of the best (and first) in the community. Perhaps you should be the one to start the grass roots Organization that is needed -- Sad is all I can say about what they did to you and yours, and I am truly sorry that you have went through what you did when the Act should have protected you from the start as it as it WAS designed to do -- but when you have Judges in the COA ignoring the plain text of the Law and saying "it is confusing" (when we have some Statutes that are 100s and 1000s of pages long), or poorly written -- BULL -- this is from people who simply do not WANT IT and create these excuses to fool people -- it has several sections and protections for registered and unregistered people -- the say all this because they do not agree with it not because it is confusing -- this is code, just like "privatization" is code for cut your pay in half for the same work you were doing last week.

 

The entire point of my post above is that until We get an Organization that is funded and can wield votes, we have nothing. Letters do not get it. Protests do not get it.

 

Others above are right, it is because of our own passive inaction it has come to this.

 

In any case, keep your spirits up Brother, their ARE good people in this community, unfortunately they do NOT have the loudest voices yet.

 

Most of the great ones (like you and Torey) toil away behind the scenes taking care of themselves or others and do not have time to deal with infighting -- which is why We need the other good people to step up and "just do it" to hell with all the nay-sayers and complainers.

 

WE have to keep pushing for SOMETHING, some organization will come about as It is looking more and more like a few regular people are just going to have to join together and do it ourselves as none of the people who have established groups are doing much of anything (other than making noise). We have till Oct. to get the votes organized and candidates vetted -- if We cannot get through the propaganda of the other side and let people know the truth that they simply do not want to implement that law (mainly because of LEO and Prosecutors, which you can guess which way they fall on the issue [keep it illegal}).

 

 

M

[restlesslegs]

start the grass roots Organization that is needed

M

 

Murph sounds like you have the passion and the know how to organize this.

[bobandtorey]

Bob, I have your case in my database. We know that you have nothing to hide and are one of the best (and first) in the community. Perhaps you should be the one to start the grass roots Organization that is needed -- Sad is all I can say about what they did to you and yours, and I am truly sorry that you have went through what you did when the Act should have protected you from the start as it as it WAS designed to do -- but when you have Judges in the COA ignoring the plain text of the Law and saying "it is confusing" (when we have some Statutes that are 100s and 1000s of pages long), or poorly written -- BULL -- this is from people who simply do not WANT IT and create these excuses to fool people -- it has several sections and protections for registered and unregistered people -- the say all this because they do not agree with it not because it is confusing -- this is code, just like "privatization" is code for cut your pay in half for the same work you were doing last week.

 

The entire point of my post above is that until We get an Organization that is funded and can wield votes, we have nothing. Letters do not get it. Protests do not get it.

 

Others above are right, it is because of our own passive inaction it has come to this.

 

In any case, keep your spirits up Brother, their ARE good people in this community, unfortunately they do NOT have the loudest voices yet.

 

Most of the great ones (like you and Torey) toil away behind the scenes taking care of themselves or others and do not have time to deal with infighting -- which is why We need the other good people to step up and "just do it" to hell with all the nay-sayers and complainers.

 

WE have to keep pushing for SOMETHING, some organization will come about as It is looking more and more like a few regular people are just going to have to join together and do it ourselves as none of the people who have established groups are doing much of anything (other than making noise). We have till Oct. to get the votes organized and candidates vetted -- if We cannot get through the propaganda of the other side and let people know the truth that they simply do not want to implement that law (mainly because of LEO and Prosecutors, which you can guess which way they fall on the issue [keep it illegal}).

 

 

M

 

thanks

but when you have Judges in the COA ignoring the plain text of the Law and saying it is confusing.

Thats what we thought also but the last time we were in court the judge even said that the Law is very clear and any body should be able to understand it i could not believe it she used the word (acumen) and she said that because of my pass arrest 8 years ago that the similarity between the offenses it is highly probative of the fact that the defendant (me) is involved in a continuing Enterprise of distributing illegal narcotics

Yup word for Word

Edited April 28, 2012 by bobandtorey

[bobandtorey]

Thanks for your support

[Cannalytics]

See figures 5 & 6 for the relative levels of THC, 11-OH-THC, and THC-COOH when cannabis is ingested either orally or by smoking. There's quite a bit of difference.

 

 

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=7&ved=0CGIQFjAG&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cannabismd.net%2Fabstracts-and-studies%2FGrotenhermen_Clin_Pharm.pdf&ei=sp2cT9z6C5OC8QSqluGlDw&usg=AFQjCNFYj0XZvR0HOjzD-JmSP8fiyl1F8w

[Croppled1]

I don't know exactly what you are referring to so I cannot speak to it directly but, in general, a COA ruling is law. A lot of people don't realize that an unpublished COA decision does not create precedent and is only good for the precise facts in the case that was argued. Therefore, an unpublished COA opinion can maybe be persuasive to courts but it isn't necessarily binding.

 

Secondly, a lot of people don't realize that what is discussed in the body of a court opinion is not law. The only law that comes out of an opinion is the actual ruling itself which is usually at the end of the opinion. The "dictum" within the body of the opinion may be persuasive to courts but is not binding. It also may give clues as to how the court may rule on other issues but the bottom line is that it is not law.

 

Lastly, for a court to hear a case there must be an actual "case and controversy." That means a court cannot issue an "advisory" opinion. For example, in the McQueen case, the court indicated that it would rule on p2p transfers for remuneration but that it would NOT rule on p2p without remuneration. Some saw this as the court "legalizing" p2p without remuneration and others saw it as the court being sneaky by just avoiding the issue altogether. The fact is that under the constitution the court could not answer the p2p w/o question because the case did not involve that issue. If it would have ruled on p2p w/o then it would have been issuing an advisory opinion. Therefore the court explicitly avoided the issue. This does NOT make p2p w/o legal. Nor does it necessarily make it illegal. It just means the court won't address the issue until a case involving the issue is presented.

 

I really appreciate your time but as a patient I can't understand what this means can qualified cardholders drive or not ? The act states it protects one for internal possession under medical use and I thought all other laws that conflict no longer apply . Why is this not like every other medication none of which are non toxic like cannabis ? After 3 years of few if any problems with some patients improving as long as they stay active why this now and what makes it go away . Cannabis surely isn't schedule one no accepted medical value for the 63% of the voters or patients only Schuette ,his judicial buddies and other opponants to the act . At least that is how it feels . There has been no education to accept patients for law enforcement or help and support for reasonable enforcement of rules erring in favor of patient saftey and normalized activity pursuits .

Edited April 29, 2012 by Croppled1

[AKenewell]

I really appreciate your time but as a patient I can't understand what this means can qualified cardholders drive or not ? The act states it protects one for internal possession under medical use and I thought all other laws that conflict no longer apply . Why is this not like every other medication none of which are non toxic like cannabis ? After 3 years of few if any problems with some patients improving as long as they stay active why this now and what makes it go away . Cannabis surely isn't schedule one no accepted medical value for the 63% of the voters or patients only Schuette ,his judicial buddies and other opponants to the act . At least that is how it feels . There has been no education to accept patients for law enforcement or help and support for reasonable enforcement of rules erring in favor of patient saftey and normalized activity pursuits .

 

There's justice and there's law. And they aren't always the same thing. Judges rule on law. And if you read what they've published, it sounds like they know that it's not about justice. They basically come out and say their hands are tied by the law and that here's what can be done about it. Reschedule it... under the Michigan Public Health Code or define impairment. That's where we're at.

[GregS]

Look Muph. These arguments have predominated these last few years. Welcome to the conversation. Please feel free to use this and any other resource to examine the discussion since the law was just an itch in its daddy's pants. We welcome any discourse that adds to the mix.

Edited April 29, 2012 by GregS

[peanutbutter]

THC, legally, comes in two forms.

 

Schedule 1 and schedule 3.

 

Until a short while ago, the difference between the two included the fact that the schedule three kind was required to be made synthetaclly.

 

At that point, you could tell the diffence between the two in a lab. Not the THC but traces of other compounds. Other things that exsist in the marijuana plant.

 

So you could test for those other things .. that way you could tell it came from a plant.

 

Not that the police labs ever test for those "other" things. The police, labs and courts simply assume that if it is THC then it is the plant kind.

 

That means zero tolerance applies .. schedule one, you know ..

 

But if it was made from a test tube then zero tolerance didn't apply. Not that the police lab was ever concerned about the possible error. Everyone just assumes the worst.

 

Then the FDA changed the rules. The patent for THC ran out. So now it is available in generic form.

 

Here is where it gets good ..

 

When the FDA did that they also changed the required formulation. The generic THC can now be from plant material.

 

So .. to make plant based THC you grow your plant and then extract the resins. FDA rules ..

 

That is how you make schedule three THC. According to the FDA.

[peanutbutter]

as per the FDA .. grow the plant and then extract the THC.

[restlesslegs]

thanks

but when you have Judges in the COA ignoring the plain text of the Law and saying it is confusing.

Thats what we thought also but the last time we were in court the judge even said that the Law is very clear and any body should be able to understand it i could not believe it she used the word (acumen) and she said that because of my pass arrest 8 years ago that the similarity between the offenses it is highly probative of the fact that the defendant (me) is involved in a continuing Enterprise of distributing illegal narcotics

Yup word for Word

 

No kidding! That is crazy. I had a little visit from them about the same time you did before it was supposedly legal. I was very lucky I was not arrested but unfortunately a friend was. I can hardly believe she would compare the old charge with growing now.

[Croppled1]

There's justice and there's law. And they aren't always the same thing. Judges rule on law. And if you read what they've published, it sounds like they know that it's not about justice. They basically come out and say their hands are tied by the law and that here's what can be done about it. Reschedule it... under the Michigan Public Health Code or define impairment. That's where we're at.

 

I know some zero tolerance States specifically exclude cannabis from their zero tolerance law with specific language . Would that not be a third possibillity for qualified patients who require therapuetic levels that saliva and blood tests don't consider ? The direction the Obama administration and supporters of limits are taking would place every patient acting in good faith and whom drives just fine in jeopordy of arrest and conviction without regard to function just a arbitrary limit . It does not take into consideration the great financial , physical and mental costs to patients from loosing driving privilages as well as the economic impact on society .

 

This is despite evidence that experts admit no limit exists that reflects impairment now or is there hope that one will be found in our lifetimes .

 

. In the article linked below the drug Czar also states there must be a upper limit of use that impairs all patients . However is that necessarily true ? Cannabis is non toxic and nobody has ever overdosed except on the sythentic marinol . Every other medical substance I know of including vitamens have toxic levels that can lead to death and in most states they can be taken legally while actually driving . Nobody is fighting for access while driving to medical cannabis . These are very scary times for medical cannabis patients and many are being hurt when they only want to drive short distances to Church ,a Park , a Doctor , Work if allowed access and able , or a local Community activity which are all a requirement of mental and physical health . What is the alternative ? Public transportation is not a option for many of the disabled who cannot adapt to the constraints of shared rides or cost especially in rural areas nor can we move and house patients to suitable assisted living arrangements that provide these needs on site , within walking or wheel chair distance . Few facilities even exist in this State . I hope cannabis is rescheduled as it should be and as a community of patients we have to overcome our fears on our abillity have affordable grows . The two should not be mutually exclusive .

 

http://postbulletin.....php?id=1490397

Edited April 29, 2012 by Croppled1

[Irishgreen]

I think what bobandtorey refer is his case. And this is one of the many criminal cases were the Medical Marijuana Community let you (and really all of US) down miserably. WE as a community should have been rallying around you in every sense of the word -- I do not mean this in some metaphysical, figurative sense --- I mean MONEY !!

 

 

 

 

I am really sorry We failed you. You do have a right to be upset, but I can tell you if it (your case) was properly handled from the start, it MIGHT have turned out differently.

 

We still should start doing what We needed to do 2-3 years ago start collecting a small amount from every new registry card holder -- say $10 a year (for those not getting the discount) to put into a legal defense fund and administered by an elected or semi-elected team (and I do NOT mean general election, I mean a private one of people contributing or some other mechanism that is not too massive and uncontrolable but the details can be worked out later).

 

The purpose of the fund would be to change everything from criminal cases to supporting elections -- a PAC essentially but one able to help single people as these are the cases that end up appealed and as I think bonandtorey will attest, years of litigation destroys one person and needs funding from outside sources or it gets dismissed as financially it is unsustainable. This could "even things up" for defendants fighting criminal cases against the enourmous resources of the State. To provide a good defense your need Attorneys, Paralegals, Court Reporters, researchers, investigators, appellate team, jury consultants, ect., . and the reasons are simple, We need to start looking at this as a long term issue like NORML has for 30 years.

 

We need to (and I do not recall the exact facts of your case bobandtorey, off the top of my head) at least Organize EFFECTIVELY, that is the first step and can be done cheaply online with a LAMP system or on Amazon AWS -- if We do things right from the start, and then incrementally build up the resources needed to do the above things, then start helping in cases and appeals, and finally elections, slowly things will change. No magic bullet exists to all of a sudden fix this, it is an ongoing thing and We are terribly outgunned right now as We do not even have a Statewide Organization with numbers, and We have single individuals, and small groups, saying they represent "us" much like the Legislators say they represent "us" when they do nothing of the sort -- they represent their special interests. No one is looking at and defending the big picture with the needed resources.

 

At a minimum such an Organiaztion has to be inclusionary not exclusionary -- sure some people spout off but cutting them off, banning them, locking things solves nothing -- we need to listen and move on and not let such people waste our valuable time. And the Organization has to be large enough, and ongoing, to include the vast majority of MM Patients/caregivers and have at its center, defense of the LAW that was garnered in mainly by MPP --the sooner we do this and go on the offensive, the sooner things will start to change.

 

"They" will soon start to realize they have grabbed a tiger by the tail. At a minimum will have to let them know they will have a fight on their hands because as of right now, they have won every battle and not even broke a sweat -- We have lost every battle.

 

They sit back and watch us destroy ourselves.

 

They sit back and watch us in-fight amongst ourselves about petty nonsense.

 

They sit back and know We have no organization

 

They sit back and know no one is defending the majority of Patients and Caregivers rights.

 

We cannot even mold Legislation because not one Legislator in the House or Senate has proposed a Bill WE want pushed to correct the things WE want corrected -- most of the Bills have come from ex-Sheriff Sen. Jones -- and you only need to say X-LEO to know how He leans !!

 

Most of all they know we have no money. We fund no defense even in cases that We know are going to do damage -- we do not want to hand the Court of Appeals cases like Koon where He was drunk, speeding, and snitched on himself -- and I realize We cannot force people not to do things but with an organization and funding We can do alot -- not everything -- but hopefully enough.

 

LEGAL ACTION BY MM ACTIVISTS IN MICHIGAN -- NONE. (The only person who has is Atty. Grow and that was local lowest law enforcement priority stuff, which is un-enforceable).

 

It is so sad We have not even sued the Medical Marijuana Program that has for 3 years of sent out 1 year Registry Cards some 6, 7, 8 months after the applications are received WHEN THE LAW SAYS, INDEED says Registry Cards "shall be" (which means hard line must do it in legal language) sent out in 20 DAYS or less -- it is a slam dunk of a "case" to win as a matter of law - heck they even admit it on the web page how bad they have been preforming -- and a paper system when it should all be online is atrocious. Many of the people arrested has been because of not having "cards" even though the law says paperwork is in it's place after 20 days (but how many people have you seen with Notarized paperwork as the Act requires)? None.

 

The old adage "United We stand, Divided We fall" certainly applies to US HERE IN Michigan -- our opponents are destroying US

 

COA Judges issuing diatribes should have been the first indication they threw out all semblance of Judicial restraint and were going to be purely political in issuing decisions (mainly because they have prosecuted Marrijuana so long they cannot grasp it being legal).

 

These Judges are not even a minimally intellectually honest and they ignore or omit from consideration the plain text of the Act when it suits them -- and We cannot even garner ONE response -- We have ONE Application for Leave to Appeal to the Mi Sup Crt. ONE in three years when We should have a good half-dozen !

 

And our "Leaders" somehow think some "letter" with "unified" names on it will deter them Legislators from (trying) to pass the Bills into Law -- the super majority built into the Act is the only thing slowing them down as they simply do not have the votes (if it is along party lines). The "immediate-effect-o-gate may have had something to do with it as they were just ramming Laws into immediate effect essentially corruptly as they did not have the 2/3rds vote to do so --- they certainly do not have a 75% super-majority to amend the medical marijuana in both Chambers -- in the House the spread is simply to large for them to overcome (I hope, as We know behind the scene "buy offs" happen all the time).

 

Our opponents only understand two things --- 1) Money and 2) Votes. We have neither

 

 

M

 

 

We had a group, that was started for exactly what you are talking about, it was to handle the legal information side of things. They were to keep up on cases in each county, and were going to collect funds to help with legal defenses. I am pulling a blank on the name of the organization, but it was formed of all members from here. Good people. But, sadly....it got little support.

[bobandtorey]

I know some zero tolerance States specifically exclude cannabis from their zero tolerance law with specific language . Would that not be a third possibillity for qualified patients who require therapuetic levels that saliva and blood tests don't consider ? The direction the Obama administration and supporters of limits are taking would place every patient acting in good faith and whom drives just fine in jeopordy of arrest and conviction without regard to function just a arbitrary limit . It does not take into consideration the great financial , physical and mental costs to patients from loosing driving privilages as well as the economic impact on society .

 

This is despite evidence that experts admit no limit exists that reflects impairment now or is there hope that one will be found in our lifetimes .

 

. In the article linked below the drug Czar also states there must be a upper limit of use that impairs all patients . However is that necessarily true ? Cannabis is non toxic and nobody has ever overdosed except on the sythetic marinol . Every other medical substance I know of including vitamens have toxic levels that can lead to death and in most states they can be taken legally while actually driving . Nobody is fighting for access while driving to medical cannabis . These are very scary times for medical cannabis patients and many are being hurt when they only want to drive short distances to Church ,a Park , a Doctor , Work if allowed access and able , or a local Community activity which are all a requirement of mental and physical health . What is the alternative ? Public transportation is not a option for many of the disabled who cannot adapt to the constraints of shared rides or cost especially in rural areas nor can we move and house patients to suitable assisted living arrangements that provide these needs on site or within walking or wheel chair distance .

 

http://postbulletin.....php?id=1490397

 

i agree maybe we need a test case?any body up for it? of course you would need lots of $$$$

[bobandtorey]

We had a group, that was started for exactly what you are talking about, it was to handle the legal information side of things. They were to keep up on cases in each county, and were going to collect funds to help with legal defenses. I am pulling a blank on the name of the organization, but it was formed of all members from here. Good people. But, sadly....it got little support.

i think it even had a map for it

i was going to so many case's 3 to 4 a week but no one else came

[Restorium2]

That's the one VV and TJ had going, right? 3M something wasn't it?

[Irishgreen]

That's the one VV and TJ had going, right? 3M something wasn't it?

 

I remember Welj and Cindy being a part of it......

 

I think VV too, now that you mention it

[bobandtorey]

That's the one VV and TJ had going, right? 3M something wasn't it?

am thinking it was john walsh or john something w

[bobandtorey]

I remember Welj and Cindy being a part of it...... I think VV too, now that you mention it

i think you are right john Welj i no Cindy was involved

[Restorium2]

3med?

[Irishgreen]

3med?

 

Yep....that's it!

 

 

Ding Ding Ding....We have a Winner! LOL

[bobandtorey]

http://michiganmedicalmarijuana.org/topic/19545-forming-a-political-action-committee-pac/page__p__169740__hl__3med__fromsearch__1#entry169740

[Irishgreen]

OMGosh...Bob, I would have thought that was back when Greg was still here. I can't believe it was when Blueberry was here!

[Restorium2]

There was some overlap.