Help Ohio Legalize Marijuana

[Norby]

The test is not the letter after their name it's what they do that counts. Oh well, no one said it was going to be easy. Easy means you got it all wrong .... My uncle the arsehole couldn't get voted in as a R so he changed and got voted in as a D. I'm not falling for that one. No way. 

All the D's voted for the transport law so who's left?

[Restorium2]

Why does anyone apologize to someone who says, "Open Your Eyes"?

 

Like we have been blind all these years and need to realize that we will need to be slaves to those who only want cannabis for a money maker?

[Restorium2]

All the D's voted for the transport law so who's left?

Hint; Not the incumbents 

 

The answer was in the question.

Bob Seger 

[Restorium2]

Go and watch that video again about the fat slob dispensary owner in CO that outright says he doesn't like marijuana but wants to make his whole family rich off of it. He says that right in your FACE. 

 

Quasi legalization in CO did one thing for cannabis, it proved the last caution left about cannabis was false, that selling it openly would cause public havoc.

 

There's nothing left for reasons for cannabis to be illegal. We have won and yet to have received our prize, no more penalties. Remove it from the criminal code.

Edited October 25, 2015 by Restorium2

[imiubu]

I choose to think for myself not be lead by media hype and paid for statistics that legalization promoters

generate.

 

Not one argument for legalization has made a single teeny tiny step into rationalization of a sane mind.

And... that ^^ comment is NOT directed towards anyone on these boards... just my general observation

of the legalization mantra.  If people want to move forward with these so called 'baby step', perhaps

the 1st. step should be into reality.

 

Some folks can't see the forest for the trees.

 

Carry on, I'm done banging my head here.

[imiubu]

Go and watch that video again about the fat slob dispensary owner in CO that outright says he doesn't like marijuana but wants to make his whole family rich off of it. He says that right in your FACE. 

 

Quasi legalization in CO did one thing for cannabis, it proved the last caution left about cannabis was false, that selling it openly would cause public havoc.

 

There's nothing left for reasons for cannabis to be illegal. We have won and yet to have received our prize, no more penalties. Remove it from the criminal code.

 

Yep. 

[Restorium2]

Next time someone approaches you about using marijuana for taxes, paying off national debt, building roads, ect., ask them why it's even illegal now that we proved all the reasons to be false. Marijuana has been falsely accused of everything you can think of and now that marijuana has been proven not guilty give me a good reason you need to punish the users some more in their pocketbooks after all these years of the injustices we have endured. They should be paying us, not us paying them.   

[Highlander]

This conversation highlights the obvious catch-22 with regard to the goal of removing all penalties for MJ manufacturing, possession, and use. 

 

One argument is that it takes big money for either corporate interests to lobby lawmakers or to fund successful ballot initiatives and that such measures are needed to make the baby steps towards wider-spread pubic acceptance.  In other words, the little-guy personal grower will never have the influence to affect change, so the little guy needs to hope that once big corporations open the floodgates and that these same money-makers won't take further efforts to institute entry barriers to the personal grower, or, worse yet, take steps to eliminate personal grows.

 

The argument on the other side of the coin is  that once big corporate dollar folks get the idea that they can make huge profits off MJ, they will lobby lawmakers to restrict rights of the individual and keep manufacturing rights solely in the hands of the big-money interests....that the baby step to complete and total decriminalization will ultimately result in the ability to grow and sell MJ falls in the hands of the few.

 

To sort this out, we need to look at the history, because as we all know, history repeats itself.

 

What we have seen so far:

 

• Dispensary interests in CA spent a lot of money to defeat legalization in CA;
• In Arizona, the dispensary interests were successful in supporting the passing of new restrictions to prevent home grows within 25 miles of a dispensary;
• In Washington State, recreational MJ interests whined and cried (and paid money to lobby) the state legislature to attempt to force additional taxes on medical MJ because they were super-sad that medical MJ didn't require the same tax rate as recreational;
• In Michigan, we've seen dispensary interests, as early as 2009, make the case that home grows are dangerous and should be banned; and
• In Ohio, it is proposed  that MJ "legalization" will result in only 10 commercial grow facilities state-wide.  (Why only 10?  Why not let anyone have a change to pay a license fee, deal with the red tape, and run a commercial grow?)

One might believe that the Ohio plan is a good one, because it provides for individuals to grow more than enough for personal use, which looks good on the surface.

 

But what is there to make the individual grower believe that the "baby step" of allowing commercial growing side-by side with individual grows will result in additional FORWARD steps towards complete decriminalization?  It is well-understood that real change in MJ laws requires big money and that the individual grower has little chance to affect change.

 

Therefore, it follows that the big-money corporations are the movers and shakers of a new law.  Why would anyone believe that if the Ohio initiative passes that the 10 big growers will suddenly decide that they have enough of the pie?  Big-money interests haven't shown this behavior in any other state.  It would be naive to think that the big corporations in Ohio will suddenly lay-down and keep the law as-is, when they know that the little guy has little influence on policy, and  the big corporation holds the keys to the treasure chest.

 

It's a real dilemma.

[+Malamute]

Did it lower the arrest rate and the fines, etc.  I think it did. 

 

 

In Michigan, marijuana arrests have increased since 2008.

 

Vote out republicans and get rid of the police union.

 

Get a democratic governor, Administrative offices are run to help patients, not hurt them.

 

Dem AG and opinions in court, legislation and administratively change to help patients.

 

Vote in friendly dem prosecutors etc

 

 You don't have to 100% change to make a substantial impact on this concept.

[+Malamute]

 Here is the future...

 

 

The unsustainable path of indoor cannabis 

 

http://www.digitaljournal.com/news/environment/the-unsustainable-path-of-indoor-cannabis/article/447382

 

 

There is a dark cloud looming over the cannabis industry: indoor growing. While municipalities that have legalized marijuana are reaping the financial rewards, experts believe it may come at a greater cost.

 

 number of professional investors, along with consultants and industry leaders, are increasingly questioning the profile of the fast-expanding industry in Canada and the US.

 

Anthony Wile, chief investment strategist for High Alert Investment Management Ltd., said his company did business with a Canadian start-up before executives changed their minds.

 

“We gradually realized that indoor growing was the wrong model,” he noted. “Indoor growing is environmentally unfriendly and puts a great strain on local resources. We don’t see sustainability for any of these North American companies in their current configurations.”

 

Wile and other critics concede the evolution of the industry is predictable, even though they disagree with it. “It’s understandable,” he said, “because it is the logical outcome of decades of illegal cultivation.”

 

The industry’s profile was initially configured to avoid discovery and prosecution by authorities. When cannabis began to be decriminalized and legalized, the idea of indoor growing was perpetuated on a larger scale. It likely never occurred to growers or to investors that maybe they were following the force of habit rather than pioneering a new industry in the most efficient way possible.

 

Now that there are thousands of legal businesses cultivating cannabis in the US and Canada, the drawbacks are becoming clearer and the danger to the environment is becoming far more significant.

 

No one is building gigantic indoor farms for, say, tomatoes or cabbages. And people probably wouldn’t think of growing bananas and pineapples year-round in their backyards. But for some reason, those in the cannabis industry think it is logical to create large indoor growing facilities that require huge amounts of power and water during a naturally short northern growing season.

 

Cannabis cultivators — as critics like Anthony Wile have pointed out — are already the largest users of electricity in Colorado, and there is growing dissatisfaction with this nascent industry in Canada as well.

 

In addition to professional investors, the media has been noticing. Gizmodo recently posted an article entitled, Denver's Energy Use Is Surging, and It's Because of Weed.

 

The article reports that “weed growers” in the city are straining the electrical grid. Half of the city’s spike in energy usage was attributed to cannabis cultivation. The usage is “increasing at such a high rate that the number will swell unless the city’s weed purveyors figure out more eco-friendly growing methods.”

 

It goes on to explain why “weed is such an energy-suck.” Lighting is one factor, as indoor growing demands a lot of artificial light. And the heat from that lighting is intense enough in some cases to demand air conditioning. Then there are assorted ventilation fans and humidity regulators.

 

The article quotes Boulder Weekly on some eye-opening stats as follows: “A single light used to grow 16 square feet of pot consumes about half as much energy as the average Colorado house in a one-month time frame,” wrote Steve Weishampel. “[That is] six-times as much energy as the pharmaceuticals industry and requires eight-times as much energy per square foot as the average U.S. commercial building.

 

The article is not entirely pessimistic about growing cannabis in chillier climates. It lists ways that technology is catching up to the industry by creating energy-efficient lighting and new kinds of batteries that may keep expenses down.

 

Other observers are a good deal more optimistic. The Vancouver Sun has suggested that greenhouse marijuana is British Columbia’s “Next Great Industry.” It calls the burgeoning evolution of commercial pot “one of the greatest social shifts of the decade.”

 

Yet even such an optimistic article as this had to acknowledge the negatives inherent in indoor pot cultivation. “Whether in a basement or in a warehouse, indoor cultivation is both economically and environmentally inefficient,” Vancouver Sun reporter Dan Sutton writes.

 

The article then highlighted findings from a research report by an American scientist specializing in energy and the effects of energy consumption on the environment. “Researcher Evan Mills suggests that approximately 3 per cent of Californian electricity demand powers black market marijuana growers, and the average kilogram of cannabis requires energy input that represents an equivalent of 4600 KG of carbon output," Mills adds. “Water consumption is also an issue when it comes to environmental impact, with each marijuana plant said to need between 3 and 5 gallons of water per day to grow to fruition.”

 

The Sun has some potential answers, suggesting that greenhouse technology be used to reduce electricity demand, while increasing the amount of natural light plants are exposed to. Leveraging existing technology might expand the efficiency of Canada’s non-outdoor growers and the quality of the end product as well.

 

However, there is surely a simpler solution, as suggested by Gizmodo: Outdoor growing! “Growing outdoors is more energy-efficient,” the article points out, “but it’s not legal in Colorado.”

 

Critics like cannabis industry observer Anthony Wile agree with Gizmodo that the simplest solution may be best. “It is highly unnatural to extend the growing season year-round when nature doesn’t allow it,” Wile elaborated. “We don’t see the future of the industry in high-cost indoor facilities but outdoors in climates that can support year-round growing.”

 

Wile also added, “Even if outdoor growing is legalized in colder climates, it still won’t address the problem of the short growing season. The future of large-scale cannabis production lies in countries closer to the equator. This may not be a reality that everyone wishes to hear, but business has its own logic focused around production and cost efficiencies.”

 

When questioned as to where the best places to produce large-scale cannabis crops might be, Wile pointed to several countries in South America.

 

“Venezuela is right on the equator and has a great climate,” he said, “but unfortunately, the political climate is quite questionable. Colombia is another country that comes to mind – in fact, it already produces a good deal of the world’s fresh cut flowers and has a workforce that is motivated and well-educated.”

 

“The future for the cannabis industry is one that seeks  quality at a low cost,” Anthony Wile concluded, “within an environment that doesn’t strain resources or add to already present industrial pollution.”

[Highlander]

They already want to destroy the domestic cannabis industry by shipping the jobs to other countries, even before it is begun.

Good point. The Chinese are already shipping exotic, dangerous, and euphoric chemicals to the U.S. with little to no regulation or consequence... Ordinary leaves sprayed with a concoction of industrial chemicals, to be sold in retail outlets in the U.S. at 1,000+ percent profit with questionable safety. As soon as public health officials identify a Chinese formulation that is bad for consumers, the Chinese re-formulate their product to keep dodging laws in the U.S. and keep luring unsuspecting consumers.

 

I've expressed my concerns about big-money corporations getting involved in MMJ in the U.S. But we also have to be concerned, maybe more concerned, with what the Chinese will do if MJ is completely decriminalized in the U.S.

 

The U.S. Government already looks the other way with regard to opium crops in Afganistan. Imagine what might happen if the U.S. Government takes the same approach to cannabis....the Chinese will probably do everything to make a buck.

 

Remember when we were kids and could look at the bottom of any of our toys and see, "made in Tawain?" or "Made in Hong Kong?"

 

And now, it's "made in China". The Chinese don't give a crap about worker conditions, air pollution, and the like. They just want our dollars.

 

So, while I worry about US corporations making huge bucks off relaxed MJ laws, how do we protect ourselves against the Chinese? The day after MJ becomes a free-for-all in the U.S. will be the day before the Chinese ships tons and tons of cannabis to us.

[Restorium2]

They already want to destroy the domestic cannabis industry by shipping the jobs to other countries, even before it is begun.

Totally blind sided by that one. The Chapos get their way .... again. 

[t-pain]

does that outsourced marijuana idea change your strategy resto?

[Norby]

I choose to think for myself not be lead by media hype and paid for statistics that legalization promoters

generate.

 

Not one argument for legalization has made a single teeny tiny step into rationalization of a sane mind.

And... that ^^ comment is NOT directed towards anyone on these boards... just my general observation

of the legalization mantra.  If people want to move forward with these so called 'baby step', perhaps

the 1st. step should be into reality.

 

Some folks can't see the forest for the trees.

 

Carry on, I'm done banging my head here.

Funny I think the same thing.  Does anyone really think these same politicians are going to let the idea of strait up decriminalization happen?  These same politicians that are going to ruin any legalization law?  It's like you see it's a fight all the way and they have all the power but you'll still hold out till they give you what you want?  That's what the open your eyes comment was about.  It's quite easy to see what the open your eyes comment was about.  It's not mocking, it's strait up.  How does one think that these same politicians that screw up legalization are going to roll over to give you this full out decriminalization?  How is full out decrim supposed to happen if it isn't small changes in between till it get's closer and closer then wham, we're there.  There is no and will be no strait leap to decrim.  Someone please explain to me the way that this decriminalization will happen?  Has any politician expressed such concern towards making such a law anywhere in the US ever?

[Norby]

Good point. The Chinese are already shipping exotic, dangerous, and euphoric chemicals to the U.S. with little to no regulation or consequence... Ordinary leaves sprayed with a concoction of industrial chemicals, to be sold in retail outlets in the U.S. at 1,000+ percent profit with questionable safety. As soon as public health officials identify a Chinese formulation that is bad for consumers, the Chinese re-formulate their product to keep dodging laws in the U.S. and keep luring unsuspecting consumers.

 

I've expressed my concerns about big-money corporations getting involved in MMJ in the U.S. But we also have to be concerned, maybe more concerned, with what the Chinese will do if MJ is completely decriminalized in the U.S.

 

The U.S. Government already looks the other way with regard to opium crops in Afganistan. Imagine what might happen if the U.S. Government takes the same approach to cannabis....the Chinese will probably do everything to make a buck.

 

Remember when we were kids and could look at the bottom of any of our toys and see, "made in Tawain?" or "Made in Hong Kong?"

 

And now, it's "made in China". The Chinese don't give a crap about worker conditions, air pollution, and the like. They just want our dollars.

 

So, while I worry about US corporations making huge bucks off relaxed MJ laws, how do we protect ourselves against the Chinese? The day after MJ becomes a free-for-all in the U.S. will be the day before the Chinese ships tons and tons of cannabis to us.

And they have toxic soils filled with heavy metals.  What is the one thing mjs good for with metals in soils?

[Norby]

In Michigan, marijuana arrests have increased since 2008.

 

Vote out republicans and get rid of the police union.

 

Get a democratic governor, Administrative offices are run to help patients, not hurt them.

 

Dem AG and opinions in court, legislation and administratively change to help patients.

 

Vote in friendly dem prosecutors etc

 

 You don't have to 100% change to make a substantial impact on this concept.

And what is the avg fine, etc.  Are people better off?  If not your saying the medical law was a failure?

 

If it's turned to illegal transport tickets from arrest and incarceration then it's gone down in the severity of the cases?

Edited October 26, 2015 by Norby

[Norby]

Hint; Not the incumbents 

 

The answer was in the question.

Bob Seger 

Ya, cause we can just get the whole voting public behind OUR single cause and accomplish that so easily?  How bout a simpler solution, make it too hard and it really isn't a solution now is it?  Maybe something that is actually attainable?

[Norby]

No need for an apology Imi, just didn't want to go down that road.

This is Ohio we're talking about.  Just speculation. If I were there I'd say I could work with 1/4 to 1/2 lb a week and supply all my friends.  Everyone would be able to travel with an oz. and have 8 at home.  No one would have to go to the cartel in my group.  That's how you have to think to win.  Just like the corps.  Can't win if you don't take advantage like they do.  The law they want would make our activities legal all except the sale to a friend.  I'd use that against them knowing that some people will buy from them and they can recoup their costs for a few years till it all falls apart.  I only have so much time on this earth and i'm not going to use it trying to do things that reality of the US isn't ready for yet.  If this all happened in my old state with my friends all living there, I'd be for it because I was doing it before it was legal.  The law would only protect me for everything I WAS doing except the exact moment of sale.

Then I'd let all the taxes and tourism from every surrounding state pay for my roads and give a boost to the local economy.  Personally I'd look at all the surrounding circumstances and realize that it would be a good situation for me to partner with the cartel to overcome the Gov't realizing it has too many benefits to pass up and I'd be throwing all of my friends under the bus along with teh newbies who don't care to spend $20 - 25 on a gram once a week instead of drinking. 

If I lived in Ohio I'd vote for it.

[t-pain]

you're saying legalization allows people to OGG ?

[Norby]

OGG?

[t-pain]

overgrow the government

[Norby]

I don't quite understand?  I think it puts the cartel on it's customers, and pot consumers in general, side.  Why would the cartel want it's customers and tourists getting arrested?  Maybe it's competition but how are tehy going to bust people in small circles who didn't get busted under growing a dozen or so plants before illegally?  It seems the only people who should be "against" this bill are people who want to make money on selling to the public.  I caould be very wrong, it's speculation on what could happen in the future.  But tell me one service other than cottage industry(under 20k in sales per year) that's not under certified kitchens, certain packaging standards, taxes, etc.  There is nothing "decriminalized" like they want.  Even the mushrooms I sell to the public are supposed to be dried in a certified kitchen, even under cottage industry standards.  Only unprocessed(uncut other than removing dirt) things can be sold to the public that aren't quickly perishable.  MJ if not dried right can mold.  Not my laws and not what I'm for but there are standards and laws for everything, even tomatoes.  If you sell tomatoes with too much pesticides, there are repercussions.

Here's the Mi cottage food law that just started letting people sell certain foods out of their home kitchen:

http://msue.anr.msu.edu/news/homemade_food_products_and_the_michigan_cottage_food_law

My fault there are packaging standards in the cottage food law.

Even my mushrooms sold to the public have to be kept at 41f or below at all times during storage and transport.  And I had to be certified to pick wild mushrooms to sell to the public.

I just don't see a route to this complete decrim.  I want it but I don't see it ever happening in any real way so I'd not hold my breath and look a gift horse in teh mouth in the meantime.  I only have so much time on this earth.

Edited October 26, 2015 by Norby

[+Malamute]

And what is the avg fine, etc.  Are people better off?  If not your saying the medical law was a failure?

 

If it's turned to illegal transport tickets from arrest and incarceration then it's gone down in the severity of the cases?

 

Unfortunately the severity is the same.

 

The law is fine.

 

It is merely the police, certain elected officials and the anti drug warriors fighting their last anti marijuana fights with zeal. They are pushing back with everything they have and it shows in the fact marijuana arrests are going up.  They will not go away quietly.  They will fight us tooth and nail every step of the way just to stick their thumbs in our eyes.  They will never stop and we should stand firm and push for what we really want.  They will collapse and we will win battles along the way,  but never cower to their whims.  Take our wins where we get them and stay strong and principled on our goals. 

 

 They wont back down. We wont back down.  Push and push until we get what we want.

 

 Don't just accept the few crumbs they are offering. Don't keep letting the police exchange  one freedom to us for 2 freedoms lost.  1 scrap of fake legalization for more arrested people.

 

" Sure we will legalize marijuana, as long as we still get to arrest thousands of people just like before, or MORE, for stupid crimes like not holding your mouth right while you are holding a joint"

 

What Ohio will vote on is better than what they have in ohio currently; but it's still  a crapp law.

[Norby]

From what I read on overgrowthegovernment. ya, moving towards that ideal.  I think it's an ideal that will always have to be fought for(decrim), but you have to jump on the pendulum as it's swinging if there's no other ride in town.  What has Cali paid, well it's residents, for not moving the pendulum for so long.  Look what the rest of the country has paid.  you have to make the gov't compete, state to state, like it's workers do.  You move the bar in every new state.  Eventually the states that don't legalize will loose tourism and dollars and pay the price and so will it's citizens.  Cause i won't vacation there, I couldn't fully enjoy it.

 

And I'm saying all this so people don't think I'm "being paid by the cartel to say this"   I'm just justifying my vision and my decisions, ya'll can think what you want.  I realize Mi is a tuff state teh way teh medical law has been treated in parts of the state.  I'm still in my NY mindset I had to deal with for so many years.  It must be close to Ohioans mindset having NO medical law down there.  If I were there I'd be pushing doubly hard for this just to be able to care for my sick self without the stress.

I mean if I had a sick kid and myself and a real job, wholly cow I'd be pushing for it.  under their medical clause you CAN'T be fired from your job for Medical use.  I don't know how that works if you drive kids school bus but maybe I read it wrong or there is some clause or something about safety.

Edited October 26, 2015 by Norby

[+Malamute]

Michigan has horrible laws on cottage food industry and such.  Other states are so much better for that issue.

 

Michigan has horrible liquor laws for that matter.

 

Michigan has a lot of horrible laws actually.  WTF am I doing here!?