Medical Marijuana Backers Protest Proposed Michigan Legislation

[+washtenaut]

First, I never said to make any demands.

 

I think where my point is missing may be on the timing of the affect. You are doing all you can do to make immediate wording changes. That is great work and we all appreciate the positive changes you have made. There are other avenues of attack as well.

 

If effective at all, efforts at shining public light on the Reps' awareness and actions will have an impact on their next campaign. Those voting YES to punish patients will have to answer to the voting patients. Those that can say 'we thought we were helping patients' have an out. Unfortunately, many House Reps have this cover today.

 

I don't have the answer as to how to remain chummy enough to continue discussions and yet politically savvy enough to corral in their positions publicly but if possible, it would have its impact in November.

[+washtenaut]

OK, I was wrong. I've reconsidered and want now to withdraw it all. Clearly my motivations for this discussion are all misguided too.

 

As always, thank you for the beacon.

 

I was way off base on everything I said. The secrecy advocates were right all along. Less is better for all. You'll see.

 

Secrecy is truly the brilliant and only right way forever, Amen.

 

out

[+Malamute]

 

If effective at all, efforts at shining public light on the Reps' awareness and actions will have an impact on their next campaign. Those voting YES to punish patients will have to answer to the voting patients. Those that can say 'we thought we were helping patients' have an out. Unfortunately, many House Reps have this cover today.

 

I don't have the answer as to how to remain chummy enough to continue discussions and yet politically savvy enough to corral in their positions publicly but if possible, it would have its impact in November.

 

CPU hand delivered the Unity letter with the opposition of 3 dozen of the main medical marijuana associated groups in Michigan. We opposed the bills very clearly thus leaving no excuses. I mean, pooliticians can lie, we all know that. But the Capital was abuzz from end to another when the letter was delivered. They all know. Besides the thousands and thousands of emails, phone calls and meetings where people told them to not open the Act.

 

It's a big major job and funding is minimal. Seems 150,000 pts/cg's can't even donate 1 dollar a piece to help push our political protection. :-) CannaPac

 

But your main point, they do not have the political cover. But you cannot stop them from lying. You have to write Letters to the Editors for all local newspapers explaining it professionslly, plainly, and in clear terms. I still believe we are failing on the LTE front. But this will bring light to the darkness of lies. You can influence the electorate alot via this avenue.

[+Malamute]

OK, I was wrong. I've reconsidered and want now to withdraw it all. Clearly my motivations for this discussion are all misguided too.

 

As always, thank you for the beacon.

 

I was way off base on everything I said. The secrecy advocates were right all along. Less is better for all. You'll see.

 

Secrecy is truly the brilliant and only right way forever, Amen.

 

out

 

Now now frumpmeisterburger burgermeister,

 

Here's an example of what 'leaders' have been talking about:

 

Funding a rally and getting commitments from other leaders and groups.

 

Getting food permits for the capital.

 

Hand delivering another unity letter due to the Supreme Court decision, pointing out its plain language and the reasons why parts of this legislation should still be scrapped.

 

I know, scary stuff we leaders talk about. :-)

 

I can say it has all been talked about right here on this forum, it is just a matter of mechanics to make it happen, which is what leaders are for.

 

I get this feeling like you think there is some master grand plan unfolding around you and if you just had your 3D glasses or secret decoder ring, you could figure out all this secret stuff going on. :-)

 

Heh. And just as in the movie " A christmas Story", all you will likely find out is that you should "Drink your Ovaltine". You will be disappointed.

[NEO]

 

I was way off base on everything I said. The secrecy advocates were right all along. Less is better for all. You'll see.

 

Secrecy is truly the brilliant and only right way forever, Amen.

 

out

 

 

you are finally getting it mr naut...

to try and discuss anything on this forum with the people at the buttons now is a waste of time.

 

cpu is a 'secret' group that meets only behind closed doors 'privately' and anything they do is for " members" only.

many members in the group were former dispensary owners or work with MACC and MOCC

and have now converted to 'compassion' centers you hear talked so much about here but cannot find ANY information on these centers outside this forum

they will tell you they are about disseminating the latest information and helping patients ...how?. ..to find 'their'vetted caregivers

they are really a dog and pony show and most are a front for the expected provision centers they say will not pass

right----someone worked with the reps to devise this sinister patient friendly model

 

these are groups fighting for dispensary rights as opposed to overall patients rights except to legally buy thru a provision center now

 

this is the 'wording' they have been working on to help change and clarify the law with the reps

at least that is how it looks

and IMHO they f---kid us all with their efforts and intentional derailing of any collective unity from patients outside their groups

 

the voice(s) they say they represent are just the voices in their heads that fuel their ego driven rants on the forums here

and most of the few dozen or so regular people that post the rhetorical rebuttals you see are just ego maniacs with inferiority complexes

they have to always come out on top

it's collective damage control as a whole for their efforts

notice how they always ask for someone to fund their efforts?

besides them and their members

if they had all the unity of groups working together now as they say it would seem that they could easily muster the required funds to finance their 'lobbyists'

gimme a break

 

do you like how they worked out the bona-Fide doctor patient relationship?

you now have to see a doctor at least three times a year to monitor and document the efficacy of cannabis use in your situation. if you get a card

I think the ego-maniacal dr boob was behind this effort

 

you have to pay dues to become a member and they are not too friendly when it comes to outsiders here prying into their ways and means of doing things or inviting any new members...or public input...they dont want any!...especially people /patients/caregivers that aren't 'vetted' by their group concious

notice how some of them call and imply theirselves as 'leaders' ?

of who?

the small groups of patients and caregivers vetted by them that support and give strength to their delusions of grandeur

from my observations they Appear the same way as a lot of readers here now believe...

ever since this new 'group' took over monitoring and moderating this site it is a collective effort at diffusing and discrediting by condescending remarks any perceived threat to their efforts

 

IMO whatever they claim credit for will do nothing to truly help patients in this state gain affordable safe access.

if you call going to a provision center to buy medicine from one of their groups for 3-600$oz then I don't see who that will help except them.

oh but their legal friends have now won allready included in the law right to a affirmative defense..

so you will here more about that...

but not here

 

a lot of these people are trying to quiet any sort of collective effort that coul really positively change anything for patients rights except to

legally buy from a provision center

it's not hard to really sniff thru their rhetoric that is so pervasive here now

it's all so condescending and aimed at making themselves look good by making others look bad

it's called character assassination and they are very good at it collectively

watch after this is posted it will be the same ones on this thread trying to discredit this post or me or putting out more rhetorical propaganda aimed at making their efforts to secretly negotiate appear to be altruistic

don't post her it is a waste if time and mostly this forum is now a communication hub for these groups to keep in touch since they are scattered thru out the state

do a little research on some of these posters/moderators and it will open your eyes

it's not hard to put faces to many of them because they often times slip and give out their real names or someone gives credit to them here for some 'compassion' center nonsense

get ready by fall though when this 5580 bill goes thru and then you will truly be able to see them in action ...publicly

 

advertising their compassion club turned provision center

oh and they will try and unify the CCs that are allready on board with them and have a stakeholder interest in their efforts

 

notice how most of the listed online viewers in this forum are now mostly 'guests' with the same members always posting and attacking newbies here

 

start your own forum mr naut I believe from reading a lot of your posts it would be a good one dedicated to patients rights first and foremost and could possibly even have some effective change for all of us by the content of your posts

you seem to be a passionate person towards the big picture here and I think you would gain instant popularity among patients looking for answers as to why patients rights weren't defended first---

p-p should have been a no brainier but that was the first thing to go of or rights

and it was clearly stated in the prop 1 initiative

there was just no tax and regulate in that format for all those looking for the capitalization angle in all this

my advise is to watch this drama in this forum and not participate as it is a waste of time

and nothing except what the secret groups agenda here will be accomplished

nothing for us patients

peace and consciousness

be awake and aware of what is really up here

 

oh and one other thing watch how they will try and spin this into another joe Cain kool aid drinker attack

they just can't leave that alone and anyone that opposes or dissents from them is another joe Cain minion even though a lot of us don't even know this guy except you can learn a lot from reading the venomous post in older threads

[trix]

A very large part of a lot of people's problem is that they are accustomed to the last admin from this site. He constantly beat into people how great he was and how he would die for them and wouldn't sleep until work got done. He was an attention seeker of the highest order. He, on a daily basis, told us how he was keeping the dogs at bay. One day he acted like we were near the end and the next he would announce that we "won." A little Charlie Sheen-esque. "Winning!"

 

People, I think, have grown to expect that others will tout their accomplishments. I think a lot of the, "what have you done for me lately," crowd needs to realize that there are many people who quietly work behind the scenes and are not big on seeking attention for their accomplishments.

 

Man o man That took me over a solid hour to read each post in this thread another 45 minutes to ramble this post off, I don't skim topics I read each of them word for word and try to understand the view points from each poster, and it seems that alot was based on the leadership of the site, as well as bickering about who does what for the community and why this protest wasn't supported by the MMMA.

 

I had MutiQuoted many posts but it was just going to be a lot of redundant answers. I quoted this one post highlighted in bold and underlined, because that is so true so many people do things that go unseen and unheard because there is no reason to boast how great these people are what they do it for you and I, for free, they take time out of their lives away from family to meet and try and help us OUR community not that you guys don't, but you have singled out the leadership of this site and that to me is unfair.

 

The leadership is doing alot, Zap has offered to hold Coffee Hour meetings with the community, has offered his own free time to answer the questions and concerns you all have I'm sure if you asked any of the staff here they would bend over backwards to help you I have seen it first hand. If you want to get to know the leaders of the Staff, reach out to them (nicely) try a PM, and I can assure you that you will get answers your seeking if its possible to give. We aren't hiding anything from any of you, we want the same thing you guys do, I myself have attended the rallies in the past, I'm may catch flack from this but we didn't stop them from doing anything, in fact they didn't have to listen to us at all, some didn't some have and are willing to work with the community.

 

We should give some respect where it is due not bash the ones trying to help. Just cause it hasn't made it to BR the place where it all began????? the big messed up place,remember it's happening to everyone all over the place..and it will get better it already has with the latest court rulings. It will take time, and many will still suffer in the meantime, but now you can present your claims in court to a jury. HUGE STEP for the community..

 

The site is run by you the members the suggestions and concerns that are raised by the community are brought up among staff and discussed, not to hide any information but to present it to you all with a factual, rational explanations with possible answers and resoltions to the proposed ideas you all place on the boards.

 

beourbud ~ You have alot of negativity in some of your posts here in this thread, I'm sure you are frustrated with things as are alot of people statewide, Have you had a chance to listen to the most recent Plant Green Trees Webisode, alot of great talking points were discussed, I know you stated that the place to start was BR, I lived in Macomb County, and the issues there were very bad, have you seen the statistics on how bad things are in Oakland County OMG they are bad...It is like that all over its sad but true. there was much more I wanted to relay to you that could possibly help you in your quest for freedom, and ways to start your own grass roots community in your county, I read for so long I lost track of some of my points I will re read your posts and PM message you in the future, w/ your permission in hopes to easy some of your concerns.

 

The community has to understand the staff can't solve everything, we do this for free to help you guys. We do this to help everyone that comes here for answers.. negativity doesn't help at all for new members, especially if the issues can't be solved by a protest, protest aren't always the answer, you have to remember that. How would you feel if I sat outside your home or place of business with 20-40 people bashing you, and telling you how bad of a job your doing.. when in the case of protesting the capital your doing that to Some reps that are fighting FOR you not against you yes some are not favorable, that's why a face to face meeting would hold more weight that you standing outside. does that make sense?.

 

I for one am choosing the route to meet with my reps inside "behind closed doors" not to hide anything but because I am afraid, and disabled I have such bad anxiety I haven't left my home but 3x's the entire month, and I am staff here does that make me a bad person or do you perceive that as being sneaky? cause its not its cause I want MY story to be told in a professional setting, with my Rep's sitting directly across from me, I want Him/Her to see the tears roll down my face as I express my feelings. That can't happen by a protest outside. I really hope you can see that we have come together with new leadership here at the 3ma, we are not working to undo any part of the law if there are meetings held without the public knowing, it may be just because they want it to be as personable as possible, that is my reason for doing it that way. I love rally's I get to leave my home and meet the community that has the same outlooks on things as I myself do, and some that do not, and I can listen to them and hear why they feel the way they do.

 

I would like to know how you feel about a 'rally' on the lawn with Representative's on the grass with you? I think in this thread money was brought up, the cost of having even a small gathering is quite expensive and with a majority of the community in bad financial positions it is very hard to raise funds to accomplish a task like this, one that doesn't have negative press afterwards.. imagine this Headline reads "Medical Marijuana community meets with legislator's on the lawn of the Capital to come to a agreement" or something along those lines. POSITIVE PRESS that is something that is hard to obtain, but it can be if organized correctly, before we hold a rally such as this contacting press informing them that the legislators will be attending to meet and greet, if we Contact all of our Rep's informing them of this event before hand and inform them what this event is about so they are prepared, we already have the backing one Rep for this idea and he suggested to contact his co workers, for this event he thought is would succeed. But that would involve a group effort, back to letter righting, but positive letters share your thoughts on the Supreme Court rulings be nice to them(even is you don't like that person).. make them want to attend. If we can do that we will win, if we can express are feeling in a civil manner with them, and press will attend. Possibly the reps will make statements on their reaction to our suggestions and concerns to the press afterwards. THAT is a way to get POSITIVE press (again all my own opinion)

 

Have you read the idea of a gathering on the lawn of the Capital? many were on board with this approach, also it was discussed on the show Thursday night with a Representative of the bills that your concerned about, he openly stated that he thought this would be a great thing. He also stated that he would attend, and suggested that we contact other reps he named a few on the show. I will post a link to the show in question at the end of my post. how do you feel about that idea? You could be talking face to face with your Rep's on a personal level, not a courthouse like setting, but outside having a hot dog really connecting with them hearing their thoughts and expressing yours. You could even express how bad things are in BR, and if done correctly in a civil manner your thoughts and ideas could stick with them when it comes time to vote on anything MM related.

 

Ok I have been at this far to long, please excuse my long post things were getting off the OP topics, and I started to read negitive things about how we the staff are handling things. That had to be address (imo) We are on your side, pleas trust someone, I know trust is earned, but I don't feel we have been given time to earn your respect just yet, in the case of leadership I stand behind everyone involved. I trust the people running the MMMA I don't take sides, and will step down and express my feeling if I ever felt I was being betrayed as of today that is not the case.

 

Trix

 

Please Listen to this weeks show, several things concerning the community are address, as well as the proposal an confirmation of a gathering with the reps..We can make it happen.

http://www.blogtalkr...abis-radio-show

[cristinew]

Neo all you have said is FALSE please stop, you are trying to divide us patients and keep us fighting that is not cool

 

POST SOME FACTS ooops you cannot ,, please take your lies someplace else

Edited June 3, 2012 by cristinew

[trix]

Neo, have you ever sat and met with your Representative?

 

Whos to say you weren't in there trying to push your agenda, yours not the community's.. If I said nope he was there fighting for us I would be lying so would anyone else that wasn't in that room with you. frustrates me to here you say that they hold hidden meetings to change the law.. please show me the conversations they had... so I can make my own judgement call. For all I know you were doing it, for your own gain.. if you can't prove it then don't say it. cause I will meet behind closed doors and would hate to be slandered and say I was trying to screw the community for my own gain.. grrrrr you don't know what is being talked about your just making assumptions

 

Trix

 

Ps gosh that post I made up there was long, I'm sorry everyone, but I was trying to make valid points and defend the site. hope it doesn't just get passed over due to length.

[trix]

you are finally getting it mr naut...

to try and discuss anything on this forum with the people at the buttons now is a waste of time.

 

cpu is a 'secret' group that meets only behind closed doors 'privately' and anything they do is for " members" only.

many members in the group were former dispensary owners or work with MACC and MOCC

and have now converted to 'compassion' centers you hear talked so much about here but cannot find ANY information on these centers outside this forum

they will tell you they are about disseminating the latest information and helping patients ...how?. ..to find 'their'vetted caregivers

they are really a dog and pony show and most are a front for the expected provision centers they say will not pass

right----someone worked with the reps to devise this sinister patient friendly model

 

these are groups fighting for dispensary rights as opposed to overall patients rights except to legally buy thru a provision center now

 

this is the 'wording' they have been working on to help change and clarify the law with the reps

at least that is how it looks

and IMHO they f---kid us all with their efforts and intentional derailing of any collective unity from patients outside their groups

 

the voice(s) they say they represent are just the voices in their heads that fuel their ego driven rants on the forums here

and most of the few dozen or so regular people that post the rhetorical rebuttals you see are just ego maniacs with inferiority complexes

they have to always come out on top

it's collective damage control as a whole for their efforts

notice how they always ask for someone to fund their efforts?

besides them and their members

if they had all the unity of groups working together now as they say it would seem that they could easily muster the required funds to finance their 'lobbyists'

gimme a break

 

do you like how they worked out the bona-Fide doctor patient relationship?

you now have to see a doctor at least three times a year to monitor and document the efficacy of cannabis use in your situation. if you get a card

I think the ego-maniacal dr boob was behind this effort

 

you have to pay dues to become a member and they are not too friendly when it comes to outsiders here prying into their ways and means of doing things or inviting any new members...or public input...they dont want any!...especially people /patients/caregivers that aren't 'vetted' by their group concious

notice how some of them call and imply theirselves as 'leaders' ?

of who?

the small groups of patients and caregivers vetted by them that support and give strength to their delusions of grandeur

from my observations they Appear the same way as a lot of readers here now believe...

ever since this new 'group' took over monitoring and moderating this site it is a collective effort at diffusing and discrediting by condescending remarks any perceived threat to their efforts

 

IMO whatever they claim credit for will do nothing to truly help patients in this state gain affordable safe access.

if you call going to a provision center to buy medicine from one of their groups for 3-600$oz then I don't see who that will help except them.

oh but their legal friends have now won allready included in the law right to a affirmative defense..

so you will here more about that...

but not here

 

a lot of these people are trying to quiet any sort of collective effort that coul really positively change anything for patients rights except to

legally buy from a provision center

it's not hard to really sniff thru their rhetoric that is so pervasive here now

it's all so condescending and aimed at making themselves look good by making others look bad

it's called character assassination and they are very good at it collectively

watch after this is posted it will be the same ones on this thread trying to discredit this post or me or putting out more rhetorical propaganda aimed at making their efforts to secretly negotiate appear to be altruistic

don't post her it is a waste if time and mostly this forum is now a communication hub for these groups to keep in touch since they are scattered thru out the state

do a little research on some of these posters/moderators and it will open your eyes

it's not hard to put faces to many of them because they often times slip and give out their real names or someone gives credit to them here for some 'compassion' center nonsense

get ready by fall though when this 5580 bill goes thru and then you will truly be able to see them in action ...publicly

 

advertising their compassion club turned provision center

oh and they will try and unify the CCs that are allready on board with them and have a stakeholder interest in their efforts

 

notice how most of the listed online viewers in this forum are now mostly 'guests' with the same members always posting and attacking newbies here

 

start your own forum mr naut I believe from reading a lot of your posts it would be a good one dedicated to patients rights first and foremost and could possibly even have some effective change for all of us by the content of your posts

you seem to be a passionate person towards the big picture here and I think you would gain instant popularity among patients looking for answers as to why patients rights weren't defended first---

p-p should have been a no brainier but that was the first thing to go of or rights

and it was clearly stated in the prop 1 initiative

there was just no tax and regulate in that format for all those looking for the capitalization angle in all this

my advise is to watch this drama in this forum and not participate as it is a waste of time

and nothing except what the secret groups agenda here will be accomplished

nothing for us patients

peace and consciousness

be awake and aware of what is really up here

 

oh and one other thing watch how they will try and spin this into another joe Cain kool aid drinker attack

they just can't leave that alone and anyone that opposes or dissents from them is another joe Cain minion even though a lot of us don't even know this guy except you can learn a lot from reading the venomous post in older threads

 

Everything I read was your opinion, I'm not one to argue and won't here either but you know what they say about making assumptions.. and your post was entirely a assumption on what might happen, or could have been said not facts NEO. None that I read.. anyway. people keep their clubs private for reasons, might be they don't want loose cannons representing their efforts.?

 

Facts and stats is what I like, and you have presented none..

 

Trix

 

PS. I found this ironic,

 

the voice(s) they say they represent are just the voices in their heads that fuel their ego driven rants on the forums here

and most of the few dozen or so regular people that post the rhetorical rebuttals you see are just ego maniacs with inferiority complexes they have to always come out on top.

[+Annnie]

I just have one little bit of input on this............ Although it is clear to me that Pt/Pt is expressly permitted in the plain language of the act. Unfortunately it wasnt presented to the CoA as a pt making transfers with another pt.. It was presented as a buisness getting MM from pts and transfering it for the pt to another pt. That seems to add more if you ask me.. but im no expert..

[SFC]

Funny NEO uses words like "character assassination" and many others that dear leader is so fond of yet tries to distance himself from him. Kinda like distancing yourself from yourself , right Joe?

 

Great post Trix, and you speak with truth from the heart.

 

Within five minutes of the Supreme court hearing coming down I was in contact with my Rep buddy... That is the kind of stuff that goes on behind the scenes. I encourage you ALL to do the same.

 

I won't even waste my time with NEO's rant, it is completely false and utterly laughable. Joe/NEO is a sick man.

[AKenewell]

do you like how they worked out the bona-Fide doctor patient relationship?

you now have to see a doctor at least three times a year to monitor and document the efficacy of cannabis use in your situation. if you get a card

I think the ego-maniacal dr boob was behind this effort

 

Boy Joe you are all over the web..but your choice of words are giving you away.. Dr.boob heh..same reference tomcatjones is giving over on MCP. I thought last night when I read the idea's tomcatjones was talking about..it was you. Now I know for sure..so how ya been Joe..or should I call you tomcat jones, or NEO? Wait, how about Christina..or Michigan representative..I'm finding it hard to keep it straight, but your words…and idea's are giving you away! AK

[+Annnie]

Boy Joe you are all over the web..but your choice of words are giving you away.. Dr.boob heh..same reference tomcatjones is giving over on MCP. I thought last night when I read the idea's tomcatjones was talking about..it was you. Now I know for sure..so how ya been Joe..or should I call you tomcat jones, or NEO? Wait, how about Christina..or Michigan representative..I'm finding it hard to keep it straight, but your words…and idea's are giving you away! AK

 

Whoa.. are you sure about this or just spreading a rumour.? I thought we were going to be more thoughtful of our posts from now on?

[SFC]

We are being thoughtful and aware Annie. Lets keep it real, shall we?

[CaveatLector]

Whoa.. are you sure about this or just spreading a rumour.? I thought we were going to be more thoughtful of our posts from now on?

Thoughtful is good. Insulting someone and calling them "Dr boob" should be grounds for dismissal. If I'm correct TOS prohibits personal insults.

[CaveatLector]

Funny NEO uses words like "character assassination" and many others that dear leader is so fond of yet tries to distance himself from him. Kinda like distancing yourself from yourself , right Joe?

 

I won't even waste my time with NEO's rant, it is completely false and utterly laughable. Joe/NEO is a sick man.

 

Frankly I have figured neo was dear leader for some time now. Do I know for sure? No. Call it a hypothesis.

[+Annnie]

Frankly I have figured neo was dear leader for some time now. Do I know for sure? No. Call it a hypothesis.

 

If you would like their real name and address pm me.. You are both wrong.. lets keep it real..

[+Annnie]

Thoughtful is good. Insulting someone and calling them "Dr boob" should be grounds for dismissal. If I'm correct TOS prohibits personal insults.

 

Dont make me quote..

[SFC]

I don't need it.

[CaveatLector]

If you would like their real name and address pm me.. You are both wrong.. lets keep it real..

I don't want/need a real name. I'm not accusing simply stating my thoughts as to the similarities in writing styles. I think I framed my comment sufficiently to qualify that it was simply this man's opinion and not an accusation...

[Hayduke]

Personally I could care less who NEO is. The post is factually incorrect and laughable. Annie if you know who is the poster, you should advise them they are posting incorrect information.

[+Annnie]

I don't want/need a real name. I'm not accusing simply stating my thoughts as to the similarities in writing styles. I think I framed my comment sufficiently to qualify that it was simply this man's opinion and not an accusation...

 

oh well since i can put a stop to this rumour that these posters are not who some have said they are then i guess this is resolved.. ;Unless im next.. LOL its my goal to stop marginalization of certain liberal posters call me kooky.. We all have an important role in our united front..

[+Annnie]

Personally I could care less who NEO is. The post is factually incorrect and laughable. Annie if you know who is the poster, you should advise them they are posting incorrect information.

 

I did point out the incorrect information.. And i just said i know who they are.. Not so much that i know them..

[GanjaWarrior]

oh so the paranoid delusions of some are grounds to insult others....while we all keep it civil? the hypocrisy of this site is astounding. Its wrong to say "dr" bab plays a bit close to the leo fence , but any time u goofs dont agree with someone you start calling them joe...same moo poo u did with me, and ive been here longer than some of the goofs claiming i was joe.

[+Annnie]

If we go pointing a finger at every radical poster and saying they are joe.. its not going to make us look credible.. They are radical. I disagreed with their points on the Mcqueen case if you noticed..