Questions About Enclosure

[Highlander]

Of course not, what is it?

 

It's interesting, when referencing an outdoor , open air enclosed area we say gate. It's garden gate, not garden door.

When refering to the entrance/exit of a building or structure we say door

Indoor by definition is in a building or structure with a roof

 

To your point, this unit imo exceeds the minimum standard of outdoor.

 

I tend to agree.  The point I'm trying to make is that we need to put forth the best arguments for no top so those who choose to go topless can at least contribute some ideas to their (likely) uninitiated public defender if necessary.  Stating that wooden slats for a top will cause plant health issues isn't a good argument.  Stating that fencing over the top = an indoor space isn't a good argument.  Such positions make one who argues them seem obtuse or willfully ignorant and are likely to fail in court.

 

The best argument I can think of is that a garden has no top.  If there is no top, then there is no way to say that the top is a side.  I go back to my comparison to a milk crate.  A milk crate has five sides.  There is no top side.  This is also similar to the argument Resto used - comparing an enclosed garden to an enclosed prison.  A prison yard has no top, but a prison fence fully encloses the prison and is designed (among other things) to prevent the general public from gaining access. 

[garyfisher]

Phaque, Thinking I been doin fine without you this far I should be ok.

 

Besides if we keep takin pleas like you guys what does that get us?

 

We know the score, we ain't taking it no more.

 

So you go ahead and bend over if that's what your use too.

who the faq is taking pleas?  

[blackhorse]

Highlander:  At first I wondered what this was for, then saw the doggie door. Must be a small climbing dog?

 

Take steps out and got room for about 4 plants.

 

Thanks,

[Highlander]

Highlander:  At first I wondered what this was for, then saw the doggie door. Must be a small climbing dog?

 

Take steps out and got room for about 4 plants.

 

Thanks,

 

Maybe to keep birds or prey away from a little doggie?  Although it would make for an awesome and convenient grow space, albeit kinda small.

[trichcycler]

I tend to agree.  The point I'm trying to make is that we need to put forth the best arguments for no top so those who choose to go topless can at least contribute some ideas to their (likely) uninitiated public defender if necessary.  Stating that wooden slats for a top will cause plant health issues isn't a good argument.  Stating that fencing over the top = an indoor space isn't a good argument.  Such positions make one who argues them seem obtuse or willfully ignorant and are likely to fail in court.

 

 

For now though, "fknrepublicans" might do it eh

[mibrains]

A prison has guards in guard towers with high power rifles to keep people out... (and in) that's what makes it secure..not the fence. The fence by itself would be useless to stop access by the general public if it were not for the gaurds...so if you wanna go top less and compare it to a prison your going to need razor wire, guard towers and gaurds.

[t-pain]

imo regular yard fences keep out the general public. only trespassing criminals hop fences

[Norby]

A prison has guards in guard towers with high power rifles to keep people out... (and in) that's what makes it secure..not the fence. The fence by itself would be useless to stop access by the general public if it were not for the gaurds...so if you wanna go top less and compare it to a prison your going to need razor wire, guard towers and gaurds.

Are the guards only there when there are prisoners out?  Because I'm home often and I have a phone to call the cops.  Are the guards there to keep the prisoners from leaving?  Because plants can't leave on their own.  Do people really try to break into prisons?  What do you call it when you have a garden that's fenced in.  Do you call it "enclosed"?  I'd rather compare it to a garden, which it is, and the language used.  You can enclose pigs on a farm with just gates tied together and cemented in the ground(as per MMMA rules).  If it needs a top it's inside, as in inside a house or inside a fenced in room.  It's not outside.  Aren't the wordings supposed to be decipherable to the general public and at least a building contractor?  Or a farmer?  Who may enclose a garden or pigs?  Wasn't the wording from a dem and it's not in the original act voted on?  Why can we be busted for misinterpretation of wording of a politician?  They think the MMMA was written confusing and use that as a point against it when the only wording from a politician makes for more cinfusion than the whole act(the politicians and judges don't like the correct interpretation).  2 wrongs don't make a right.  There should be leniency or clarification considering leo interpretted different than courts and different from lawyers, etc.  Complete and utter BS!

[trichcycler]

Are the guards only there when there are prisoners out?  Because I'm home often and I have a phone to call the cops.  Are the guards there to keep the prisoners from leaving?  Because plants can't leave on their own.  Do people really try to break into prisons?  What do you call it when you have a garden that's fenced in.  Do you call it "enclosed"?  I'd rather compare it to a garden, which it is, and the language used.  You can enclose pigs on a farm with just gates tied together and cemented in the ground(as per MMMA rules).  If it needs a top it's inside, as in inside a house or inside a fenced in room.  It's not outside.  Aren't the wordings supposed to be decipherable to the general public and at least a building contractor?  Or a farmer?  Who may enclose a garden or pigs?  Wasn't the wording from a dem and it's not in the original act voted on?  Why can we be busted for misinterpretation of wording of a politician?  They think the MMMA was written confusing and use that as a point against it when the only wording from a politician makes for more cinfusion than the whole act(the politicians and judges don't like the correct interpretation).  2 wrongs don't make a right.  There should be leniency or clarification considering leo interpretted different than courts and different from lawyers, etc.  Complete and utter BS!

 

If 10 cannabis attorneys stood up and offered pro bono defenses for the 'No top" defense all at once, I have confidence the police would stop hassling for this, and that part would be over....as soon as each attorney won their case, and I am confident they may.

 

If the ones chosen by the courts to defend a  no top offense would cease urging their clients to plea bargain, and instead argue the case, we may find things would change too.

Edited July 26, 2016 by grassmatch

[Norby]

If the politicians and cops just backed the fuk off and went after real crime we'd be good too.  Instead they choose to push us into subjects instead of citizens, sick ones they swore to protect and represent, no matter who voted them in.  Fukkers! 

Edited July 26, 2016 by Norby

[t-pain]

Just checking, do you know even one person that has been arrested for (just) not having a top? I've not heard of it even once.

how about this one, zap?

 

http://banana1015.com/michigan-medical-marijuana-caregiver-arrested-after-talking-to-the-media/

 

had been growing marijuana outdoors in an area secured by a five-foot fence, but officers said he needed a roof over the operation to be in compliance.

(and of course larry king)

joel's plants could be seen , but his plants were not growing outdoors either, so who knows on that case.

[trichcycler]

Just checking, do you know even one person that has been arrested for (just) not having a top? I've not heard of it even once.

 

no, but I do know of a person hassled for not having a top in my neighborhood. no arrest, no thefts, but was sternly warned after two yrs of growing without a top. he has a top, so does his neighbor now.

 

I have been privy to a few court appointed attorney follies, and have heard of several more, and uep, these guys have always urged their clients to plea bargain. I see no reason they would begin fighting for the top vs no top all of a sudden as opposed to urging a plea bargain.  Perhaps someone has been arrested and they used the no top as their plea bargaining chip? I dunno, you're in a better position to know that.   Either way , no denying court appointed attorneys often urge plea bargains aye? 

[trichcycler]

 

Man Who Speaks Out About Police Seizing His Property Without Charges is Arrested Hours Later  

 

By Anne Schieber | Dec. 6, 2014 | Follow Anne Schieber on Twitter

Kowalski

A man featured in a Dec. 3 Michigan Capitol Confidential story for being a medical marijuana user and having his property seized and money taken by police without being charged with a crime was arrested at 2 a.m. the next morning by the Michigan State Police within a day after the story was published.

Wally Kowalski says he was woken Wednesday to find the police at his door with a felony warrant. He was handcuffed and brought to the Van Buren County Jail where he spent the night in a cold cell without a pillow or blanket. He was arraigned in the morning and released after posting $1,000 on a $10,000 bond.

The police charged Kowalski with delivery and manufacture of 5 to 45 kilograms of marijuana, between 20 and 200 plants, a 7-year felony and/or carrying up to a $500,000 fine. He was also charged with distribution without remuneration, a misdemeanor.

Kowalski carries a medical marijuana card for himself and says he is the caregiver for four other valid cardholders. When police searched his house on Sept. 2, they could not find two caregiver cards. Kowalski says he lost the cards but did get replacements days later and turned them over to the police.

StayEngaged

Receive our weekly emails!

 

Under Michigan’s medical marijuana law, he is legally allowed to grow 12 plants per person. According to the seizure order, police found 55 plants.

When Kowalski asked if his arrest has anything to do with the report, he said police told him they have never heard of the publication.

“Originally, the detective on the case told me he would call me if they issued an arrest warrant so I could submit voluntarily. I can’t see the necessity of arresting me in the middle of the night,” Kowalski said.

His attorney, Daniel Grow thought the overnight arrest was unusual, as well.

“On these kinds of charges, I get most of my clients in during the day when the courts are opened and they can avoid a night’s stay in jail,” Grow said.

The commander of the Southwest Enforcement Team, Lieutenant Wayne Eddington, did not return a call for comment.

Michigan Capitol Confidential began inquiring about civil asset forfeitures on Nov. 7. Eddington did return a phone call and spoke about forfeitures in general terms but was not asked about specific cases. On Nov. 21, Michigan Capitol Confidential called the Van Buren County Clerk for a copy of Kowalski’s petition for seizure order. On Nov. 24-26, Michigan Capitol Confidential left messages for Special Prosecutor Cory Johnson, Eddington and the media representative at the Michigan State Police about discussing specific cases. None of the calls were returned. On Nov. 24, police got the arrest warrant on Kowalski. Three days later, they released the hold on his bank accounts. He was arrested Dec. 4. Kowalski is scheduled to appear in court Dec. 15 and Dec. 17.

Edited July 26, 2016 by grassmatch

[t-pain]

this one , too

 

http://michiganmedicalmarijuana.org/topic/24477-people-v-john-doe-charlevoix-county/

 

http://www.amberglawnorth.com/Unfairly-Targeted-Medical-marijuana-grower-says-Charlevoix-deputies-went-too-far-destroying-100-000-crop.shtml

 

Charlevoix Deputy William Church of the Joint Operational Law Enforcement (JOLT) multi-jurisdictional drug team wrote that the plants were not properly enclosed. The team found the plants in a padlocked hoop house, which was wholly covered with fencing (including the roof). A six-foot chain link fence surrounds the hoop house. Although not required by law, the hoop house and fence were both covered with thin white plastic to block an outside view of the plants.

 

this was before the current outdoor law...

 

http://michiganmedicalmarijuana.org/topic/24477-people-v-john-doe-charlevoix-county/page-3

At the last minute, the prosecutor asked for a promise from mr x to put chicken wire over the roof of the hoop house. Williams said he readily agreed because it meant that deputies would “never mess with Cecil again. Putting that on the record is a safeguard for mr x. Now he can have a whole outdoor grow operation, unique to the whole state, and he won’t have to continue putting plastic on top.”

[t-pain]

http://www.tokeofthetown.com/2011/07/man_grew_marijuana_for_wife_with_cancer_could_get.php

 

The writer indicates she and her husband, both medical marijuana patients and caregivers, decided to store their marijuana in a “secured yard with a 6-foot fence, locked up.” However, the enclosure did not have a roof.

According to the writer, officers said they got a tip about marijuana growing outside the couple’s home and “that it was illegal to grow outside without a top.

 

which is this post:

http://michiganmedicalmarijuana.org/topic/29921-growing-outside-and-busted/

 

which , again, is before the outdoor law was added.

 

but this, is again, about not having a top on the enclosure.

[trichcycler]

http://www.tokeofthetown.com/2011/07/man_grew_marijuana_for_wife_with_cancer_could_get.php

 

 

 

which is this post:

http://michiganmedicalmarijuana.org/topic/29921-growing-outside-and-busted/

 

which , again, is before the outdoor law was added.

 

but this, is again, about not having a top on the enclosure.

 

 

Just who does this attorney work for, really?

I wonder if this one too suggested a plea bargain to these unfortunate people?

 

  "We now have been told by our attorney that while in trial our status as an approved patient with a card cannot be a defense. If during the trial, we were even to mention the fact that we were licensed medical marijuana patients, that we will be held in contempt of court.

 

[t-pain]

thats how it goes in 99% of cases, grass.

 

the prosecutor says "your medical marijuana card and patient status was ruled to be not applicable, because you are a drug dealer" so the judge agrees and says if you mention the words medical marijuana he will put you in jail for contempt of court (court = judge, basically "going against judge order").

 

then the judge will declare a mistrial where you have to do it all over again.

or, in hartwicks' case, the judge went into the jury room alone and told them to vote guilty anyway.

 

 

thats what bob keeps talking about, he hasnt heard the words "medical marijuana" in court only maybe once so far (and that was by accident!). and he goes to a lot of court cases in the past 7 years.

 

 

of course, 30 days in contempt is a hell of a lot less than 4-8 years in prison, so I figure go nuts tell the jury every chance you get, or wait until closing statements just to waste court time.

 

i am not a lawyer, this is not legal advice. my advice will probably get you tossed in jail.

[trichcycler]

thats how it goes in 99% of cases, grass.

 

the prosecutor says "your medical marijuana card and patient status was ruled to be not applicable, because you are a drug dealer" so the judge agrees and says if you mention the words medical marijuana he will put you in jail for contempt of court (court = judge, basically "going against judge order").

 

then the judge will declare a mistrial where you have to do it all over again.

or, in hartwicks' case, the judge went into the jury room alone and told them to vote guilty anyway.

 

 

thats what bob keeps talking about, he hasnt heard the words "medical marijuana" in court only maybe once so far (and that was by accident!). and he goes to a lot of court cases in the past 7 years.

 

 

of course, 30 days in contempt is a hell of a lot less than 4-8 years in prison, so I figure go nuts tell the jury every chance you get, or wait until closing statements just to waste court time.

 

i am not a lawyer, this is not legal advice. my advice will probably get you tossed in jail.

 

I know right.. jigs up. you can grow cannabis but if we catch you legal or not you will not be able to mention your medical use to a jury during your defense attempts.  --otherwise known as "take a plea schmuck"   why in the world did we ever tell the man we wanted to grow cannabis in the first place? 

 

I know its wrong, you know its wrong, lawyers know its wrong and we'll go to jail if we say its wrong to the jury. Supreme Justus System.  I dont think its unreasonable to believe more plea bargains are garnished via court appointed attorneys compared to  5  digit defense teams.  

[WET]

“When you see corruption being rewarded and honesty becoming a self-sacrifice, you may know that your society is doomed.”

— Ayn Rand

 

Wet

[beourbud]

Delivery and Distribution. Aka "selling" is what attracts Leo.

 

If you are growing your own or for your 5 they don't care.

 

Get caught selling outside your 5 or transferring concentrates at the cup and you're asking for trouble.

 

The Law is not describing ( a top, roof, chicken wire). Because an Outdoor Grow has no top, roof, chicken wire

Edited July 27, 2016 by beourbud

[beourbud]

The law describes indoor grows and Outdoor grows differently. That is because the distinction between the two is the top/roof.

 

An indoor grow inherently has a top/roof whereas an Outoor grow by definition does not.

 

There are thousands of outdoor grows operating right now and that number is growing.

 

Where are all the charges for no top.....nada

 

Don't listen to cops, they lie.

 

And just because a cop scared you into dropping azz in yer diaper , it don't meen the sky is falling.

 

All they got is bully when you are within the law.

 

If you don't want to get busted don't sell outside your 5

Edited July 30, 2016 by beourbud

[+Malamute]

I don't report how it "should" be, I report how it "is".

[phaquetoo]

Just checking, do you know even one person that has been arrested for (just) not having a top? I've not heard of it even once.

mm ranch had one, but he was in the middle of his front yard for the world to see, I dont think he had a top either, I dont know the out come of his case, I dont have no use for the idiot so I have no idea how his case turned out!

 

Peace

[phaquetoo]

I know right.. jigs up. you can grow cannabis but if we catch you legal or not you will not be able to mention your medical use to a jury during your defense attempts.  --otherwise known as "take a plea schmuck"   why in the world did we ever tell the man we wanted to grow cannabis in the first place? 

 

I know its wrong, you know its wrong, lawyers know its wrong and we'll go to jail if we say its wrong to the jury. Supreme Justus System.  I dont think its unreasonable to believe more plea bargains are garnished via court appointed attorneys compared to  5  digit defense teams.  

Im not saying this is right, But a sec 8 defense is for any one caught with mm whether they are registered or not!  It was supposed to be a get out of jail free card for non card holders!

 

so when they say you dont get the sec 4 defense (which usualy means charges dropped) you have the sec 8 and cant use being a pt or c.g in the case!

 

Just my o.p

 

Peace

[phaquetoo]

The law describes indoor grows and Outdoor grows differently. That is because the distinction between the two is the top/roof.

 

An indoor grow inherently has a top/roof whereas an Outoor grow by definition does not.

 

There are thousands of outdoor grows operating right now and that number is growing.

 

Where are all the charges for no top.....nada

 

Don't listen to cops, they lie.

 

And just because a cop scared you into dropping azz in yer diaper , it don't meen the sky is falling.

 

All they got is bully when you are within the law.

 

If you don't want to get busted don't sell outside your 5

or grow w/o a top!

 

Peace