Guns And Mmm Patients

[CedarSpringsCG]

I know I am getting into this late... But the whole gun thing is "possession of a firearm while in commission of a felony".  CPL is different, we aren't talking about that... And really it was put in place to add mandatory minimum sentences to keep people in jail longer.  There is a defense of Entrapment by Esstopel, which is really important here.  The state law says we are OK, and shall be afforded every right and freedom of someone not in the program, but then law enforcement tries to take away rights, such as firearms, driving, etc.  Well, if the state tells you it is OK by statute/law, then tries to punish you for it, that's Entrapment.

 

Just FYI, I do not condone driving while impaired, however that goes for MJ, alcohol, being too tired, etc... 

 

But if I am using meds my doctor recommended, and I find definitive benefit from using such medication, and it isn't impairing (I have yet to see a deer camp not full of beer and Jack Daniels/Jager), the biggest concern is getting sleepy and falling out of a tree stand.  

 

Alcohol will lower inhibitions, making you more likely to take chances.  MJ is more likely to slow you down and recheck everything.  This isn't LSD or something where you have hallucinations and such that could impair your judgement.  Anyway, I firmly believe that MMJ patients should be able to own guns, especially hunting guns.

 

And this is just after I've gotten rid of my guns  Anyone want to buy some 22 ammo?  Got the ammo left, gun store wouldn't take it

[CedarSpringsCG]

Just to clarify, it is not actually this, but that is what the charge can become in extreme circumstances, only with growing or selling. Not just use. Use is a misdemeanor only.

Sorry my bad...  but still, our law supersedes all others, and it says no right or privilege will be withheld (paraphrasing...).  

[mibrains]

http://cannabisnews.com/news/28/thread28902.shtml

 

  Why Medical Marijuana Patients Can’t Buy Guns Posted by CN Staff on September 07, 2016 at 10:38:08 PT
By Christopher Ingraham 
Source: Washington Post 

USA -- An appeals court ruled last week that a federal law prohibiting medical marijuana cardholders from purchasing guns does not violate their Second Amendment rights, because marijuana has been linked to "irrational or unpredictable behavior."

The ruling came in the case of a Nevada woman who attempted to purchase a handgun in 2011, but was denied when the gun store owner recognized her as a medical marijuana cardholder, according to court documents. S. Rowan Wilson maintained that she didn't actually use marijuana, but obtained a card to make a political statement in support of liberalizing marijuana law.

Federal law prohibits gun purchases by an "unlawful user and/or an addict of any controlled substance." In 2011, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms clarified in a letter that the law applies to marijuana users "regardless of whether [their] State has passed legislation authorizing marijuana use for medicinal purposes." Though a growing number of states are legalizing it for medical or recreational use, marijuana remains illegal for any purpose under federal law, which considers the drug to have a high potential for abuse and no accepted medical use.

The U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals for the 9th Circuit ruled that the federal law passes muster with the Constitution, as "it is beyond dispute that illegal drug users, including marijuana users, are likely as a consequence of that use to experience altered or impaired mental states that affect their judgment and that can lead to irrational or unpredictable behavior."

The court then concluded that it is reasonable to assume that a medical marijuana cardholder is a marijuana user, and hence reasonable to deny their gun purchase on those grounds.

From a legal standpoint, the nexus between marijuana use and violence was established by the U.S. Court of Appeals for the 4th Circuit in Virginia, in the 2014 case of United States v. Carter. That case cited a number of studies suggesting "a significant link between drug use, including marijuana use, and violence," according to the 9th Circuit's summary.

In the words of the 4th Circuit, those studies found that:

"Probationers who had perpetrated violence in the past were significantly more likely to have used a host of drugs — marijuana, hallucinogens, sedatives, and heroin — than probationers who had never been involved in a violent episode."

"Almost 50% of all state and federal prisoners who had committed violent felonies were drug abusers or addicts in the year before their arrest, as compared to only 2% of the general population."

"Individuals who used marijuana or marijuana and cocaine, in addition to alcohol, were significantly more likely to engage in violent crime than individuals who only used alcohol."

Among adolescent males, "marijuana use in one year frequently predicted violence in the subsequent year."

The 4th Circuit argued that, on the link between drug use and violence, the question of correlation vs. causation doesn't matter: "Government need not prove a causal link between drug use and violence" to block firearms purchases by drug users. A simple link between drug use and violence, regardless of which way the causality runs, is grounds enough.

Still, the 9th Circuit did suggest causation was part of its decision, saying that irrational behavior can be "a consequence" of marijuana use.

This argument — that substance use increases risky behavior — applies to plenty of other drugs, too, and not just illegal ones. For instance, drug policy researchers Mark Kleiman, Jonathan Caulkins and Angela Hawken have pointed out that tobacco users also are more likely to engage in crime relative to the general population.

"Compared with nonsmokers, cigarette smokers have a higher rate of criminality," they wrote in their 2011 book Drugs and Drug Policy: What Everyone Needs to Know. "Smoking in and of itself does not lead to crime, but within the population of smokers we are more likely to find individuals engaged in illicit behavior."

The authors also point out that there's a much stronger link between violent behavior and alcohol than there is for many illegal drugs: "There is a good deal of evidence showing an association between alcohol intoxication and pharmacologically induced violent crime," they write.

They added: "There is little direct association between marijuana or opiate use and violent crime. ... it is also possible that for some would-be offenders, the pharmacological effect of certain drugs (marijuana and heroin are often given as examples) may actually reduce violent tendencies."

Christopher Ingraham writes about politics, drug policy and all things data. He previously worked at the Brookings Institution and the Pew Research Center.

Source: Washington Post (DC)
Author: Christopher Ingraham
Published: September 7, 2016
Copyright: 2016 Washington Post Company

[swamper]

 

The court then concluded that it is reasonable to assume that a medical marijuana cardholder is a marijuana user, and hence reasonable to deny their gun purchase on those grounds.

 

So by this logic, if someone is wearing a Budweiser hat, you can assume they are a drunk, and by association, a violent person; therefore you can't sell them a firearm.

 

 

marijuana users, are likely as a consequence of that use to experience altered or impaired mental states that affect their judgment and that can lead to irrational or unpredictable behavior."

 

When has anyone ever become irrational or have unpredictable behavior from using medical marijuana?

[beourbud]

We are in the 6th District, so there is that.

[trichcycler]

So by this logic, if someone is wearing a Budweiser hat, you can assume they are a drunk, and by association, a violent person; therefore you can't sell them a firearm.

 

 

When has anyone ever become irrational or have unpredictable behavior from using medical marijuana?

 ..and people that wear budweiser hats are more likely to be involved in drunk driving and wife beating ?

[swamper]

The New ATF Form 4473 clears things up for all those who question firearm ownership and the use of medical marijuana. The Obama administrations parting gift to all of his loyal supporters and those who detest the man.

 

 

e. Are you an unlawful user of, or addicted to, marijuana or any depressant, stimulant, narcotic drug, or any other controlled substance?
Warning: The use or possession of marijuana remains unlawful under Federal law regardless of whether it has been legalized or
decriminalized for medicinal or recreational purposes in the state where you reside.

[+Malamute]

The law is the law. Vote for better congress people and Senators.  They hold the key to Shangri-La.

[+Malamute]

Btw, there is talk about trying to pass a gun rights bill for patients protecting them from "state" issues on guns.

[+Malamute]

I will be supporting said new bill(next session likely) protecting patients gun rights from oppressive STATE gun laws.

 

 I have worked with the patient caregiver population of this state for 8 years now, I can tell you the top three questions I have been asked over those years:

 

1) How do I get my card and find a physician?

 

2) How do I find a caregiver or get marijuana?

 

3) Can I keep my guns and how does this effect my gun rights?

 

 

By NO comparison those are the MAIN questions I have been asked all these years. Number 4 lags far behind those 3 as well.

 

So,... if a bill was proposed to in some way help protect patients STATE gun rights, should it be supported?  Outside of the Act of course.

[+Malamute]

Realize, not even the NRA is willing to support Cannabis patients Gun rights.  At all.  This is a "we are on our own' issue.

[cristinew]

Sessions will clear all of this up for us,  .

[Restorium2]

Sessions will clear all of this up for us,  .

When you look at the donations from the NRA to Sessions, him being in the top 5 that took the pay offs from them, I'm thinking that taking away marijuana from Americans will make more Americans eligible for buying guns legally. It's a win win for Sessions and the NRA. The more Americans using marijuana the less guns they can legally sell us. 

[cristinew]

I will be supporting said new bill(next session likely) protecting patients gun rights from oppressive STATE gun laws.

 

 I have worked with the patient caregiver population of this state for 8 years now, I can tell you the top three questions I have been asked over those years:

 

1) How do I get my card and find a physician?

 

2) How do I find a caregiver or get marijuana?

 

3) Can I keep my guns and how does this effect my gun rights?

 

 

By NO comparison those are the MAIN questions I have been asked all these years. Number 4 lags far behind those 3 as well.

 

So,... if a bill was proposed to in some way help protect patients STATE gun rights, should it be supported?  Outside of the Act of course.

How come i cannot have any pain meds if i chose to use legal cannabis in my state?

[+Malamute]

That is number 6 on my list. ;-)

 

And has been an issue we have tried very hard to get resolved in language. VERY hard. Tough one.  Asking to be treated fairly never goes over well it seems.

[cristinew]

That is number 6 on my list. ;-)

 

And has been an issue we have tried very hard to get resolved in language. VERY hard. Tough one.  Asking to be treated fairly never goes over well it seems.

Well the CDC seems to be on our side on this Mal .   Use this as some Ammo ,, https://www.painnewsnetwork.org/stories/2016/3/18/45g7l80k0vufyjyhb06z2ttgxdj3vk 

Urine drug screens are conducted almost routinely by pain management physicians and other opioid prescribers for a variety of drugs, both legal and illegal.

Some doctors use a positive result for THC as an excuse to discharge patients from their practices, even in states where medical marijuana is legal.

While the CDC guidelines encourage physicians to conduct urine drug tests before starting opioid therapy and at least annually afterwards, they draw the line at THC.

“Clinicians should not test for substances for which results would not affect patient management or for which implications for patient management are unclear. For example, experts noted that there might be uncertainty about the clinical implications of a positive urine drug test for tetrahyrdocannabinol (THC).” the guidelines state.

"Clinicians should not dismiss patients from care based on a urine drug test result because this could constitute patient abandonment and could have adverse consequences for patient safety, potentially including the patient obtaining opioids from alternative sources and the clinician missing opportunities to facilitate treatment for substance use disorder."

As Pain News Network has reported, “point-of care” (POC) urine drug tests, the kind widely used in doctor’s offices, frequently giving false positive or false negative results for drugs like marijuana, oxycodone and methadone. One study found that 21% of POC tests for marijuana produced a false positive result. The test was also wrong 21% of the time when marijuana is not detected in a urine sample.

Not mentioned in the CDC guidelines is evidence that opioid overdose rates declined by nearly 25 percent in states where medical marijuana was legalized.

[+Malamute]

Yes ,... I have the full report with that CDC recommendation.

 

But getting these Healthcare conglomerates and unhelpful physicians to not oppose it is easier said than done.

[cristinew]

Duke heath of Marquette Mi has all their patients removing from the MM program ,, or else no meds. That covers many patients in Upper Michigan.

[+Malamute]

I know.

 

 Its nauseating.

 

They truly should be ashamed.

[CedarSpringsCG]

I just saw (not for me) a Gun Purchase Application.  Whatever the ATF makes you fill out.  The question comes up asking "Do you unlawfully use marijuana, or are addicted to any illicit drugs?"  something to that effect.

 

So, yes I realize it is a federal form, however, the state in which you live is the laws you should live by.  So wouldn't you be able to say no, I use Marijuana Lawfully, not unlawfully?

 

Anyway, came up because I was just looking at the form today.

[swamper]

So basically, if you use medical marijuana you lose your second amendment rights, and you lose the fundamental right to be treated as a human being by a doctor with medication used to ease the pain and suffering we all deal with as chronic pain patients. This is insane!

[cristinew]

If you drink  if you use antidepressants  cannabis or any-other illegal drug you will be denied sales. 

[swamper]

I just saw (not for me) a Gun Purchase Application.  Whatever the ATF makes you fill out.  The question comes up asking "Do you unlawfully use marijuana, or are addicted to any illicit drugs?"  something to that effect.

 

So, yes I realize it is a federal form, however, the state in which you live is the laws you should live by.  So wouldn't you be able to say no, I use Marijuana Lawfully, not unlawfully?

 

Anyway, came up because I was just looking at the form today.

 

Because it is federal and the new form states so,

 

e. Are you an unlawful user of, or addicted to, marijuana or any depressant, stimulant, narcotic drug, or any other controlled substance?

Warning: The use or possession of marijuana remains unlawful under Federal law regardless of whether it has been legalized or

decriminalized for medicinal or recreational purposes in the state where you reside.

[CedarSpringsCG]

Ahh thanks, I didn't read the instructions...  

[swamper]

If you drink  if you use antidepressants  cannabis or any-other illegal drug you will be denied sales. 

 

Tell that to all the people out there right now dressed in orange with booze and firearms.