Cease And Desist For Jackson County Dispensaries...

[purple pimpernel]

 

 

I'm not 'Jim' but I think tax stamp would solve all the problems--

 

after all it was the govt that first came up with the idea<<-----

and dr bob has talked about it

 

I guess it would work like tobacco ? and alcohol..?

 

I doubt they would give us that much 'power' ....to tax ourselves

 

but seems like one good way to solve the distribution equation---

wanna sell it?

u better have the right amount of stamps-

 

--it's one way of making sure everyone gets their due--jm2c

 

and keeping tax and regulate in the pts/CG hands.....IMO

[+Malamute]

The effects of dispensaries shutting down:

Patients who were purchasing through dispensaries either will not be able to get meds or will start looking to the black market before seeking out a caregiver. There will be those who will choose to seek out a caregiver or even try to grow for themselves. All in all, the demand for caregivers will increase.

 

First of all, dispensaries ARE the black market. PERIOD. They are illegal drug dealers. Street dealers who turned around and rented the building behind them. Caregivers are state Legal. PERIOD.

Why would a patient seek another black market dealer before a legal caregiver? What is more convenient than making a phone call and having your medicine delivered to your front door? Almost all caregivers i know do that.

And yes, there will be an increase in need for caregivers. This is why we need to train more patients to become caregivers(patients). The rise of dispensaries hurt the actual law by diverting effort and resources used towards improving the pt/cg system. Finally, the REAL system this law provides for can step up and take care of this minority of patients who were using dispensaries. Also, the dispensaries should be putting forth extra effort to make sure their customers are able to find a legal caregiver, not an illegal black market dispensary.

 

 

For caregivers who were supplying to dispensaries:

Some will be stuck with extra meds and no convenient way to get rid of it. Other caregivers have connections on the streets. There may be a big wave of MMJ on the black market.

 

 

This law cannot override the Act and allow caregivers to sell to anyone but their connected patients. They would have to change the current law to allow caregivers to do so. It is called a big fat lie and no caregiver will be helped by this. Wtg falling for dispensary propaganda. " Allow dispensaries and we will make you rich!" -- Fools. Caregivers, if you have alot of overages you do not know what to do with, quit growing so much or get more patients(depending on situation). The law says "UP TO" 12 plants. Grow 5 if that is all ya need. Will save ya a ton of money for operating costs.

 

 

I would support dispensaries providing there would be no negative impact on the patient/caregiver system as written in our law. Dispensaries offered patients a variety of strains to try. The option to forgo obtaining a caregiver or growing for themselves. Dispensaries offer availability of meds in between harvests or if a harvest was delayed or ruined due to unforeseen circumstances.

 

Dispensaries already have had negative impact on the pt/cg ( e.g.) by causing around 50+ actual compassion clubs to close for various reasons. Think we would be better off without illegal dispensaries? Caregivers have many varieties in strains and each caregivers has their own many varieties. It isnt like people only have one single caregiver to choose from and it isnt like they can't switch caregivers anytime they want. And finally, a patient can have a caregiver supply them them while he patient is growing their own. No need for dispensary. Our law already covers for those circumstances. Utilize it.

 

I am sure it will work itself out over time. Patients will find viable caregivers or learn to grow themselves and possibly become caregivers over time. Current caregivers will continue to gain experience and become more skilled.

 

Absolutely. If dispensaries hadnt done their best to derail the pt/cg system, we wouldnt need to teach more cg's right now. But it is easy to do so and i assume everyone has adopted someone to teach by now,... right? Everyone? Make the law work right?

 

 

Yes, I agree that some people are playing helpless. For many, it was about convenience. There are those however, that are not able to grow due to their living arrangements, such as federal housing, disabilities, etc. Others are not able to find caregivers willing and able to meet their needs, financially, quality, or quantity.

 

Ok, so caregivers have all these overages, yet are unable to have enough quantity? Caregivers are half the price(or less) of a dispensary, yet a dispensary is a better option financially? And i thought dispensaries only sold caregiver grown cannabis, so what's the issue?

 

 

As for selling to patients that are not connected to you through the program, that can be very dangerous, especially if you do not know them i.e. Undercover cops. I strongly believe I have had a few LEO PM me and even e-maile me asking for meds. As I recall, LEO in oakland county produced fake cards to bust dispensaries. What is to stop them from trying to use the same tactics to bust overzealous caregivers and patients?

 

Well, a patient can buy from anyone, so no issues there for patients. And this is why you operate within Sec. 4 immunity. You can sell to a cop of connected through the registry! :-)

[GrowGoddess]

I was not implying that dispensaries were ever legal, in fact, many times I have stated they are not. I have not had any involvement with any dispensary and I don't care to either. My patients, nor I have a need for them.

 

However, I must say, it seems like the majority of patients in my area want dispensaries for various reasons.

 

Honestly, I am neutral on the dispensary issue, I really don't care either way. As long as the cg/pt conditions remain as they are it is all good.

 

Not all patients want to play "leap frog" switching caregivers to try new strains. A friend of mine went through three bad caregivers in over the course of a year. I helped him learn to grow for himself, which turned out great. Not all patients are a lucky as him. He had the $$ to purchase equipment. Most importantly, he had time and health to grow conveniently. I know not all patients can say that.

 

"Ok, so caregivers have all these overages, yet are unable to have enough quantity? Caregivers are half the price(or less) of a dispensary, yet a dispensary is a better option financially? And i thought dispensaries only sold caregiver grown cannabis, so what's the issue?"

Some caregivers are not producing enough for their patients. I hear that complaint a lot. My educated guess would be that those caregivers did not supply to dispensaries, so far as I know. So combining your statement into one is an assumption and unrealistic. That is not the case for ALL caregivers and is kind of offensive to tell you the truth.

 

I have taught a few patients to grow that were interested in doing so.

 

I agree that the dispensaries killed the compassion clubs. Because of dispensaries, many people expected the club to provide medicine and would leave when they discovered that was not what we were about. Very disappointing to say the least.

 

I am all for helping patients learn to grow. At least three times per week I communicate with patients asking me for help, and I help the best I can.

 

Petty arguing and bickering, gets us nowhere.

 

 

It is clear to me that some of my statements have been taken out of context, misunderstood, and some of my rhetoric was taken as literal. There are pros and cons to dispensaries. None of which has had any real impact on me personally, maybe on others it has. I am for the patients needs, I am for helping the patients.

 

On some of the topics, I am sure we can agree to disagree and leave it at that.

 

We all have a right to our own opinions, I respect that.

[phaquetoo]

Jim,

What do you think of the Tax Stamps idea? I have seen a few people bring it up and I think it has merit.

 

I love the stories about the old days. Michigan has always had a great counter culture presence that I don't think we have ever gotten enough credit for. And yes I have also seen Bar Owners at the Liquor store.

 

Well I honestly think if/when despenses are legal they will have to pay taxes on the sales, they will have to either 1099 or w2 their employee's they will have to pay a sales tax, yes just like cigs and alcohol, and I wouldnt have a prob with that with despenses, but dont touch our pt/c.g modle, If a c.g is supplying a despense they will be 1099, if a c.g is supplying their pts no monetary gain, no taxes! How does that sound?

 

Peace

Jim

[TheHarvester]

I'm thinking along the same lines. It seems like this would be an easier sell to the State than other distribution models.

It also brings the entire thing full circle back to when they were first issued many moons ago, but hopefully with better results.

[SFC]

Tax stamps are definitely the only way to put a tax on it without the feds shooting a hole thru it and even then they still may.

[TheHarvester]

Tax stamps are definitely the only way to put a tax on it without the feds shooting a hole thru it and even then they still may.

Absolutely fair point. i think the stamps would put us and the state on the same side which would be nice for once.

I love the real Farmer's Markets but I can't see them ever having enough support to go through, and from I have seen from the new Bill, they aren't going to be allowed under that system either. Unfortunate as it's probably the best over all model.

The more I learn, the more I think the Stamps might be the only model people could get almost universally behind with the smallest chance for buffoonery by outside sources.

[SFC]

Even then I could see it taking a gargantuan effort to make it happen, especially on the state side of the equation. They are for the most part lazy and broke, so getting them to put down the initial investment to make it happen could very well be the biggest hurdle.

[maxmax]

Even then I could see it taking a gargantuan effort to make it happen, especially on the state side of the equation. They are for the most part lazy and broke, so getting them to put down the initial investment to make it happen could very well be the biggest hurdle.

I don't think the State is broke and we should stop giving them money

And give it to someone that needs it more

A card has not worked for the most part as I read here so many times and if that's all true if we have only a Sec 8 anyway just get your recommendation and use that ? Not sure

[Highlander]

Forgive my ignorance, but what exactly is this stamp tax idea? Would it be, for example, a productive CG buys some stamps - like $50 each, and then when he transfers unused meds to a PC, he affixes the stamp to the packaging at some stamps/oz amount? Sounds pretty easy to implement. Another idea I had was carbon less forms. CG pays $x per form set. When he leaves home to go to the PC, he fills out a form, leaves a copy at home, drives to the PC and leaves the PC with a copy. If copies are kept for a year or three, then there is an easy way to double-check that the meds went where they were supposed to go and the CG didn't make a black market detour along the way.

[maxmax]

Sounds like a great idea a win win for us all as long as no one is hurt and we all make money

Then great

[Celliach]

I don't think the State is broke and we should stop giving them money

And give it to someone that needs it more

A card has not worked for the most part as I read here so many times and if that's all true if we have only a Sec 8 anyway just get your recommendation and use that ? Not sure

 

Cards work fine all the time. For every one person that still has a problem there are dozens that the card has helped. You just don't hear about the good results ever. There's a thread here on this forum with many stories of good outcomes. Both the President and the VP of the DCCC have had run-ins with LEO and the card saved them.

[SFC]

Well, the version we talked about during the early days of the Walsh bills was for a farmers market type situation. The baggies you would transfer the MJ in would be affixed with a stamp for a certain weight or enough stamps to cover that certain weight. The baggies could be one time seal so once it is broken you wouldn't be able to just do a switch. Say for instance every 4 grams needed a 10 or 20 dollar stamp, the caregiver would pay for his/her stamps and the state gets their cut.

 

That idea was one of many tossed at the wall that did not end up sticking.

Edited March 4, 2013 by SFC

[GregS]

Are we serious??? After decades of having government withhold cannabis from us, even for medical reasons, how do we justify its intrusion to reap the monetary benefit?

 

I call bullschit. We forcibly took the authority to use cannabis under our terms at the polls after years of arrest, prosecution, and civil asset forfeiture. In my considered opinion, any legitimate patient who was denied during that period who buys into this notion is deranged, if not entirely an imbecile. There are many who suffered without rather than break the law, which we all agree was effing stupid.

 

And there are those here who would have the state tax and the profiteers flourish under government sanction, and saddle us with prohibitive costs and procedures???

 

F--k you very much.

[SFC]

We are speaking of farmers market situations. How do you propose getting traction to legalize them with your infinite wisdom? And don't say lockers, the supreme court already killed that.

[GregS]

Private secure storage.

[mibrains]

Private secure storage.

 

could you please elaborate?

[TheHarvester]

And there are those here who would have the state tax and the profiteers flourish under government sanction, and saddle us with prohibitive costs and procedures???

F--k you very much.

 

Greg are you saying you are against the idea of Tax Stamps?

[Highlander]

I would really hope we could also find a way to give meds away for free without tax and still be legal. It would be a real downer to have to give uncle Sam $50 in order to gift an oz or two to a sick person trying to get a grow going.

[GregS]

could you please elaborate?

 

Wish I could make it simpler, but the issue has been pretty thoroughly vetted at http://michiganmedic...l=&fromsearch=1. Pick up the conversation at post #409. I had thought you followed that discussion.

 

There is remarkably little valid negative criticism of the idea throughout the discussion suggesting that it is unworkable. What remains is that it not be considered a stand alone means to operate, but as an additional revenue source to complement other business in an establishment.

 

You will find that the business management, being unaware of the contents, cannot break a chain of custody between patients and caregivers. Any and all transactions regarding the contents of the lockers (there's that word C) are strictly between them, regardless what is stored and/or retrieved.

Edited March 5, 2013 by GregS

[GregS]

Greg are you saying you are against the idea of Tax Stamps?

 

Yep, if you mean to say medical cannabis. I am not involved with efforts to decriminalize the stuff altoghether, and have no position on whether or not it should or should not happen if and when that becomes the case.

[mibrains]

it is maybe not so simple as presented.

 

i did follow that thread.

 

i still dont understand the locker concept.

 

i asked in due sincerity.

 

not to be provocative.

 

please elaborate this secure system if you can.

 

 

Posted 22 February 2013 - 12:09 PM

What is wrong with a locker system in which the proprietor acts solely as a rental agent, and has no knowledge or interest in what people store? Having people come at will to store and retrieve whatever is in those lockers can be easily managed. The owners' only intrest is that rents are paid promptly and the property not damaged. I have tried to incite this conversation, and have seen no valid criticism, but only snarky referrals to it as a bad idea, and without reason given. Can we have that conversation?

 

A system that allows patients to retrieve cannabls, after having been given the okay by their caregivers, would not be so much a profitable business in and of itself, but would work as an ancillary revenue stream in many small businesses. Take for instance a tobacco shop or a coffee shop. Further enhanced with a private, members only area for patients, again as an aside to the primary business of a profit center, it could make it a destination. This leaves things as proximally in the hands of patients and caregivers as any legal means I have heard.

 

Edited by GregS, 22 February 2013 - 12:15

 

 

 

i guess i still do not see how this is viable Greg.

 

what makes you think plausible deniability has any ranking with a schedule one narcotic?

 

i don't understand why i would need a locker to legally distribute cannabis to my registered 5 patients.

[GregS]

it is maybe not so simple as presented.

 

i did follow that thread.

 

i still dont understand the locker concept.

 

i asked in due sincerity.

 

not to be provocative.

0

please elaborate this secure system if you can.

 

 

Posted 22 February 2013 - 12:09 PM

What is wrong with a locker system in which the proprietor acts solely as a rental agent, and has no knowledge or interest in what people store? Having people come at will to store and retrieve whatever is in those lockers can be easily managed. The owners' only intrest is that rents are paid promptly and the property not damaged. I have tried to incite this conversation, and have seen no valid criticism, but only snarky referrals to it as a bad idea, and without reason given. Can we have that conversation?

 

A system that allows patients to retrieve cannabls, after having been given the okay by their caregivers, would not be so much a profitable business in and of itself, but would work as an ancillary revenue stream in many small businesses. Take for instance a tobacco shop or a coffee shop. Further enhanced with a private, members only area for patients, again as an aside to the primary business of a profit center, it could make it a destination. This leaves things as proximally in the hands of patients and caregivers as any legal means I have heard.

 

Edited by GregS, 22 February 2013 - 12:15

 

 

 

i guess i still do not see how this is viable Greg.

 

what makes you think plausible deniability has any ranking with a schedule one narcotic?

 

i don't understand why i would need a locker to legally distribute cannabis to my registered 5 patients.

 

I dunno how much simpler I can make it, but will try. And please, I am not provoked.

 

What is considered is a small system that runs very much like any local storage facility. Once a tenant pays rent, that tenant is free to store anything s/he wishes and permit access to anyone they choose. Management is not criminally liable for any illicit activity it is unaware of, and certainly no licit activity.

 

Those who are comfortable enough with section 8 provisions may wish to enter into an unregistered patient/caregiver agreement. That decision would be made solely between those parties if they agree. Whether or not this occurs does not concern me. Management collects rents and access fees, and that is all they need to know.

Edited March 5, 2013 by GregS

[mibrains]

I dunno how much simpler I can make it, but will try. And please, I am not provoked.

 

What is considered is a small system that runs very much like any local storage facility. Once a tenant pays rent, that tenant is free to store anything s/he wishes and permit access to anyone they choose. Management is not criminally liable for any illicit activity it is unaware of, and certainly no licit activity.

 

Those who are comfortable enough with section 8 provisions may wish to enter into an unregistered patient/caregiver agreement. That decision would be made solely between those parties if they agree. Whether or not this occurs does not concern me. Management collects rents and access fees, and that is all they need to know.

 

ok

i see

the risk lye's solely upon the caregiver "renting"said space.

 

no risk no reward type concept.

 

if i choose to advertise on say... craigslist.. and offer meds for sale.. i suppose i would need a safe venue to relinquish custody of that medication. ISDH(insert sarcasm disclaimer here)

 

still will not alleviate the responsibility of the landlord... just because the tenant is skirting the legalities...

 

why if a caregiver is confident in their section 8 defense would they need this "middle man" storage facility?

 

if the facility has no knowledge then they have no use either.

 

a caregiver who facilitated the transaction would just follow through with it... not need a place to store it for delivery.

[GregS]

ok

i see

the risk lye's solely upon the caregiver "renting"said space.

 

no risk no reward type concept.

 

if i choose to advertise on say... craigslist.. and offer meds for sale.. i suppose i would need a safe venue to relinquish custody of that medication. ISDH(insert sarcasm disclaimer here)

 

still will not alleviate the responsibility of the landlord... just because the tenant is skirting the legalities...

 

why if a caregiver is confident in their section 8 defense would they need this "middle man" storage facility?

 

if the facility has no knowledge then they have no use either.

 

a caregiver who facilitated the transaction would just follow through with it... not need a place to store it for delivery.

 

It is an idea that I floated to air out the possibilities. Some may see value added advantages, some not so much. But as a part of a business that earns revenues on other products and services, it can be an incentive that brings in traffic. For instance, a mainstream business, one that relies on the lion's share of revenue from the provision of those goods and services, with a vault and lockers and that also provides private space outside the public domain strictly for qualified individuals to enjoy together, might work handsomely.

 

And yes, plausible deniability is an essential ingredient.

Edited March 5, 2013 by GregS