Lab Testing.

[Nemosity]

this is a topic i am really interested in...

i feel like because i believe in evolution. i must also bow to the fact that my plants are changing genetically every second of every day. so if i clone my strawberry cough plant this week... in 2 weeks the environment will have changed and at least on a molecular level so would my cough. would it affect the plant? the value of the medicine?

i want to say yes.

i want to say.. every change in the plants environment will effect the plants DNA. it, much like any living thing is in a constant state of interaction with its environment. and every and any change will be reflected with future genetic reproductions.

the question in my mind is.. do the changes strengthen the characteristics of the cannabis or weaken it? i think i currently subscribe to the theory that if your environment is as good as it can be, then genetic evolution says the plant will "strive" to become better over time. but if your environment is less than perfect, the plant's DNA may "degrade".

but then wouldn't that degradation be a possible genetic expression that may actually in the end become that strains new genetic strength? an adaptation to the environment that in some unforeseen way expresses itself as a bonus of the effects?

 

This is something that is test worthy; would love to know the answer. Would love to see testing results from the same cutting; clones; for many many many grows; from different growers and from different environments, grow methods, nutes, lights. So many variables; would love to see how this would plot out.

[mibrains]

me too...

i would love to see charts and databases...

if we were not so paranoid about prosecution we all might offer up the supporting data...

 

in our current environment we are kinda hesitant to be able to provide the research data to support the conclusions...

 

i seriously hope one day soon we will be able to track the data..

 

my passion comes from my research that showed the university of Arizona showed that during a cannabis study in the late 70's meant to show the harmful effects of overuse, it actually shrank gleoblastoma cells in research animals.

it shrank brain tumors (supposedly).

 

i am passionate about this because my father passed away from gleoblastoma in 2000. and it seems like if we knew now what they knew then.....

 

maybe with some more pressure on our legislators... and non-profit motivated research we can actually discover and nurture the numerous positive benefits this plants seems to be able to offer.

[cristinew]

Conditions will make the cannabis better or worse Popcorn bud may even test better than the big colas,, as we have one blueberry plant here over 10 years old just as good as it was in the beginning

[SFC]

My SFV OGK dates back to the 90's. I have had it myself for at least 5 years. But just like with any plant the conditions that particular clone grow up in effect the finished plant every time. Does that alter the DNA or just the physical characteristics? Without a long term controlled study we do not know.

[Wild Bill]

But just like with any plant the conditions that particular clone grow up in effect the finished plant every time. Does that alter the DNA or just the physical characteristics? Without a long term controlled study we do not know.

 

That's an interesting point. I remember reading somewhere that cannabis from one region that is left to grow wild in another region, will eventually take on the characteristics of the species native to that region.

[CaveatLector]

My SFV OGK dates back to the 90's. I have had it myself for at least 5 years. But just like with any plant the conditions that particular clone grow up in effect the finished plant every time. Does that alter the DNA or just the physical characteristics? Without a long term controlled study we do not know.

I posted about this once. I have had the opportunity to speak with scientists from MSU that run labs that use clones of plants for testing and experimenting. They use clones in experiments where it is important that the plants remain stable and they use clones that are literally thousands of plants away from the original plant cloned. They trust it so that would be good enough for me. I posted on this shortly after I spoke with the lab manager and I don't remember all of the details so maybe I'll try to drag it up and repost it here.

[SFC]

And I dont doubt their findings Cav. Cannabis is a unique species tho unlike any other plant , sadly a true test on Cannabis itself has yet to be done.

[Highlander]

And I dont doubt their findings Cav. Cannabis is a unique species tho unlike any other plant , sadly a true test on Cannabis itself has yet to be done.

 

I have never kept a mother plant for over one generation and have grown several strains for, well, over three years. I have at least two strains that are now probably 12+ generations away from the original mother. I have never noticed any difference at all. Not scientific at all, but enough to keep me from wasting plant counts with mothers.

[+Malamute]

Rest I dont think northern is a mandatory testing advocate, and you seem to be throwing him into that group. Of course I could be wrong.

 

I do think its a strange to think testing would somehow make us learn less about marijuana. Obviously your notes about your strains has a sample size that is to small to offer anything empirical. I'm sure it helps you help your patients but does nothing for the community as a whole.

 

I am not a mandated testing advocate.

 

 

Just so we can be clear,... here is quoted material that was on Northen Labs website:

 

 

 

PATIENTS: Do you know what’s in your medicine?

 

CAREGIVERS: Which of your strains best suit your patients?

 

MEMBER CLUBS: Protect yourself and your patients!

 

 

We provide analytical testing of medical cannabis.

 

We support individuals, collectives, caregivers, and compassion clubs.

 

We can help growers produce better, safer, more effective medicine.

 

 

Cannabis products are not regulated by either the USDA or the FDA. Despite the lack of federal regulation, we believe patients deserve the safest, most consistent medicine available and it should meet or exceed the relevant federal standards. Analytical purity and potency testing must be done to insure medicine achieves these standards.

 

 

The most credible way to insure the relevant federal standards are met is using a third party testing service like NLS. These services are available to anyone with a current Michigan Medical Marihuana ID card. Individual patients, caregivers, compassion clubs, patient collectives, caregiver cooperatives, apothecaries, and dispensaries all benefit from our services. NLS’ testing services are not available to anyone who does not hold a Medical Marihuana ID card.

 

 

Below is an example of what we generate in an analytical report meant to be presented with medicine. This provides all the ordered information and allows patients to make a more informed decision about their medicine. Test results are only valid for thirty days. We recommend growers, concentrate makers, and chefs test for cannabinoid profile every batch or harvest. We have plans available that make analytical testing affordable for individual patient producers as well as member clubs and cooperatives.

 

 

And here is a news article with Northern Labs in an interview that was posted on Northern Labs website( i redacted Northen Labs real name from the articles ):

 

 

Marijuana tester finds 'Street-bought' pot unsafe

 

 

GAYLORD — The owner of a Gaylord laboratory which tests locally grown medical marijuana fears patients who use black-market pot may be subjecting themselves to unsafe levels of mold and pesticides. <--- remember, dispensaries are calling caregivers "black market".

 

Edit: "Northern real name", a certified caregiver who runs Northern Laboratory Services on North Center Avenue, said last month’s court ruling, which closed marijuana collectives across the state, forces some patients to buy cannabis from street dealers(caregivers). That pot, Edit: "Northern real name", said, can harbor mold as well as pesticide at levels more than 60 times those allowed for store-bought spinach.

 

Edit: "Northern real name", , 33, is hired by local caregiver growers to test their marijuana for quality and purity. He dissolves a sample of marijuana into a solution and injects it into a gas chromatograph, which gives readings in parts per million (ppm) of pesticides as well as the plant’s active compounds — THC, CBD and CBN. He also uses a lab microscope to look for mold, which can cause respiratory problems, especially in those with weak immune systems.

 

He said cannabis from local growers that was being sold at Gaylord’s collectives tested "100 percent free of pesticides." (that were tested for)

 

Four samples of marijuana bought off the streets in Gaylord, Metro Detroit and Traverse City, however, contained pesticides upwards of 440 ppm of permethrin, 630 ppm of cypermethrin, and 485 ppm of beta-cyfluthrin. By comparison, for spinach, the U.S. Department of Agriculture (USDA) sets residual limits of permethrin at 20 ppm and beta-cyfluthrin at 6 ppm. Edit: "Northern real name", said the USDA limit for cypermethrin is 14 ppm.

 

Mold, dirt, and suspected insect droppings were also found in the samples, according to Edit: "Northern real name", .

 

“These are unfit for consumption,” he said, noting he’s published those findings on his Web site in what he calls “The Schwag Report.” “Schwag” is a slang term for low-grade marijuana.

 

“We published this report to show what some people would be forced back into using if these collectives close,” he said, referring to last month’s ruling. “It’s making it more dangerous for patients. I don’t understand why courts are forcing patients back into that.”

 

Last month, the Michigan Court of Appeals ruled facilities where marijuana is bought and sold are illegal and said they can be shut down as a public nuisance.

 

Edit: "Northern real name", said locally produced medical marijuana contains, on average, 14 percent THC — the most psychoactive compound in the plant and less than one percent each of CBD and CBN. CBD counteracts the psychoactive effects of THC. CBN has a sedative effect, he said. Some local marijuana contains upwards of 25 percent THC, meaning patients have to consume far less of the drug to achieve desired effect.

 

 

 

“Some of these (local) growers are turning out world-class cannabis,” Edit: "Northern real name", , noting his operation, as well as making marijuana available in a retail environment, helps “raise the bar” on quality among growers.

 

“Collectives have the goal of patient access to medicine, and we want to make sure they have access to good medicine,” he said.

 

Edit: "Northern real name", will attend a rally today (Wednesday) in Lansing to press legislators for improved patient access to marijuana (see related story).

 

 

So,... does that mean you no longer support mandatory(must) testing?

 

In your meetings with Representatives, have you not lobbied for such testing?

 

And do you support the mandatory testing in the 2 current dispensary bills?

 

 

I have always said, you are playing into a dangerous narrative that could strip home growing from caregivers and patients whether intentionally or unintentionally.

[SFC]

Somebody with more time can go back and look but I thought he said their equipment was not able to identify pesticides? I will dig back thru the thread later...

[Northern Lab]

Just so we can be clear,... here is quoted material that was on Northen Labs website:

 

 

 

 

 

 

And here is a news article with Northern Labs in an interview that was posted on Northern Labs website( i redacted Northen Labs real name from the articles ):

 

 

 

 

 

So,... does that mean you no longer support mandatory(must) testing?

 

In your meetings with Representatives, have you not lobbied for such testing?

 

And do you support the mandatory testing in the 2 current dispensary bills?

 

 

I have always said, you are playing into a dangerous narrative that could strip home growing from caregivers and patients whether intentionally or unintentionally.

 

I think everyone but Craig here realizes that 'black market' cannabis is the schwag imported by cartels. It is loaded with pesticidees and all sorts of unknown contaminants including mold. You are a fool if you smoke this stuff these days.

 

AS far as the language on the website, which was removed after the cannabis crusaders at MCP decided I was the enemy, it was in the current context of dispensaries popping up in our local area. The anonymity of the dispensary environment is similar to that of a supermarket, where the buyer doesn't know the grower and trusts that a third party is inspecting the produce for safety.

 

I have met once with my own rep and senator and we didn't discuss mandated testing. We discussed the many cannabinoids and other compounds that make cannabis different from the 'pot pill' made by drug companies and stressed why we need to preserve our law.

 

This mandated testing thing is something some folks use as a bogeyman used to scare caregivers into thinking there is going to be a testing lab between you and your patients. That will never happen, and IF there is a mandate, it will be for dispensaries only, and only because they have the potential to cause widespread harm if they sell bad meds.

 

 

Feels like I just got Cained. Again. Real nice Craig. Let's see if i help you ever again.

 

Somebody with more time can go back and look but I thought he said their equipment was not able to identify pesticides? I will dig back thru the thread later...

 

We can test for a number of pesticides. Never said we couldn't. No one can test for everything.

[Restorium2]

Feels like I just got Cained. Again. Real nice Craig. Let's see if i help you ever again.

 

He just asked you three questions. You get the award for over reaction here. And that's saying a lot.

[Northern Lab]

Feels like I just got Cained. Again. Real nice Craig. Let's see if i help you ever again.

 

He just asked you three questions. You get the award for over reaction here. And that's saying a lot.

 

Yeah, asked the same way someone would ask "When will you stop beating your wife?"

[Restorium2]

Yeah, asked the same way someone would ask "When will you stop beating your wife?"

Just quit being drama king. It's not personal, it's about what you are trying to do for money is messing up what we do to keep our rights. If you didn't get that out of those three questions then go drink some more coffee.

[+Malamute]

"Analytical purity and potency testing must be done to insure medicine achieves these standards."

 

It was your quote from your website.

 

Don't blame me for what you thought was front page material for your website.

 

*shrug*

 

You changed it because i called it out. Cool enough.

 

 

You weren't "Cained".... Hahaha...

 

All i did was post your website and a news article you did. At least i was kind enough to redact your name.

 

You can and are explaining your words and website. Good by me. That is definitely the opposite of being "Cained".

[Northern Lab]

Just quit being drama king. It's not personal, it's about what you are trying to do for money is messing up what we do to keep our rights. If you didn't get that out of those three questions then go drink some more coffee.

 

Yeah, sure. It's not personal at all. Especially since Malamute himself, along with his buddy Celliach, were considering becoming the first testing lab in the state way back when the law was first passed.

 

The questions posed make accusatory implications. If you don't want drama, don't provoke it with thinly veiled accusations.

[Bison]

I support mandatory testing for dispensary herb. It will give patients more info, even if they don't really know what to do with said info. Plus it can ensure that expert eyes and instruments are watching for quality issues.

[Restorium2]

Yeah, sure. It's not personal at all. Especially since Malamute himself, along with his buddy Celliach, were considering becoming the first testing lab in the state way back when the law was first passed.

 

The questions posed make accusatory implications. If you don't want drama, don't provoke it with thinly veiled accusations.

Now there you go again. We both know that there's no conflict between you guys because of the limited lab testing market and you will need to share. Pure drama without an ounce of fact. You know that but you post it anyway. How does THAT help? I went to college for chemical engineering too, am I your lab competiton also?

[Restorium2]

I support mandatory testing for dispensary herb. It will give patients more info, even if they don't really know what to do with said info. Plus it can ensure that expert eyes and instruments are watching for quality issues.

On paper, but we know they would just test something fantastic, take the tag and put it on something else. We have live quotes from a dispensary owner saying to hide the chemical stinking meds in the medibles. To set up a comprehensive test where they couldn't switch the tag is called a STATE RUN dispensary. That means we are all finished growing. The only answer for us is to know your caregiver/grower and be able to trust them.

[Northern Lab]

On paper, but we know they would just test something fantastic, take the tag and put it on something else. We have live quotes from a dispensary owner saying to hide the chemical stinking meds in the medibles. To set up a comprehensive test where they couldn't switch the tag is called a STATE RUN dispensary. That means we are all finished growing. The only answer for us is to know your caregiver/grower and be able to trust them.

 

That's not true. Food crops are inspected regularly for purity by government agencies. Yet we don't have government run farms and supermarkets.

 

A testing mandate would likely put independent labs out of business, though, as the state would probably insist that they be the only entity responsible for safety screening.

Edited November 27, 2012 by Northern Lab

[Restorium2]

That's not true. Food crops are inspected regularly for purity by government agencies. Yet we don't have government run farms and supermarkets.

 

A testing mandate would likely put independent labs out of business, though, as the state would probably insist that they be the only entity responsible for safety screening.

OK We are making some headway! Actual real issues.

 

So you actually believe that there's some way to MAKE the dispensaries put the right tag on the right bag? Explain the process.

[Northern Lab]

OK We are making some headway! Actual real issues.

 

So you actually believe that there's some way to MAKE the dispensaries put the right tag on the right bag? Explain the process.

 

YOu make a good point that there is no easy way to protect us from bad actors in the marketplace until they've done their damage. But that's the same in every market.

 

There are chain of custody procedures that could be adopted to help curb the possibility of any hanky panky, but those only work if the lab is local to the immediate market. It's a challenge, for sure. That's why I'm against any mandates. I feel that if a dispensary isn't testing voluntarily, they're likely not going to be nearly as trustworthy as those that do it voluntarily.

[Restorium2]

YOu make a good point that there is no easy way to protect us from bad actors in the marketplace until they've done their damage. But that's the same in every market.

 

There are chain of custody procedures that could be adopted to help curb the possibility of any hanky panky, but those only work if the lab is local to the immediate market. It's a challenge, for sure. That's why I'm against any mandates. I feel that if a dispensary isn't testing voluntarily, they're likely not going to be nearly as trustworthy as those that do it voluntarily.

The reason that we protest is that you outline a problem to the point that the legislature is paying attention, then leave us with the only solution as a totally state regulated system.

 

You don't have to be carrying around a sign saying MANDATE TESTING to be the one responsible for bring it home to roost. All you have to do is outline a problem, as you have, and leave the only solution as state mandated testing and state regulated cannabis. Once you make the point there's no turning back and there's no alternative. They aren't going to clean up part of the system and leave the rest of it alone. Dispensaries and small growers alike will be treated the same. None of us will be worthy to grow anything. We will be flushed down the drain to be replaced by a state monopoly because you have no real alternative plan that will work.

[solabeirtan]

" Four samples of marijuana bought off the streets in Gaylord, Metro Detroit and Traverse City, however, contained pesticides upwards of 440 ppm of permethrin, 630 ppm of cypermethrin, and 485 ppm of beta-cyfluthrin. By comparison,

for spinach, the U.S. Department of Agriculture (USDA) sets residual limits of permethrin at 20 ppm and beta-cyfluthrin at 6 ppm. Edit: "Northern real name", said the USDA limit for cypermethrin is 14 ppm."

 

Curious if you have ever checked any spinach for their claimed accurateness? for the couple of pesticides there that you test for? or any other produce sold here in the US ? Bananas ? Lettuce ?...

Edited November 27, 2012 by solabeirtan

[Northern Lab]

The reason that we protest is that you outline a problem to the point that the legislature is paying attention, then leave us with the only solution as a totally state regulated system.

 

You don't have to be carrying around a sign saying MANDATE TESTING to be the one responsible for bring it home to roost. All you have to do is outline a problem, as you have, and leave the only solution as state mandated testing and state regulated cannabis. Once you make the point there's no turning back and there's no alternative. They aren't going to clean up part of the system and leave the rest of it alone. Dispensaries and small growers alike will be treated the same. None of us will be worthy to grow anything. We will be flushed down the drain to be replaced by a state monopoly because you have no real alternative plan that will work.

 

Where did I say or imply that the only solution is a state run system? I think you're creating a false dichotomy.

 

Our supermarkets aren't state run, yet they provide tons of safe food to millions of people everyday. Small and large growers aren't treated the same. I can go to my local farmer's market and buy uninspected farm products all day long, and I do so with confidence because I know the guy across the table. I can also go to my local supermarket and buy inspected food from all over the world. I don't know the guy growing it, but I do know that the government has done at least a minimal safety check which also provides me with some confidence in the safety of the food.